Commercialisation?

Do you feel that in this day and age the martial arts are becoming more commercialised? Are we pampering to the puplic?

This is related to the topic banned exercises which Andy brought up. Are these exercises banned to please the public and bring in more students? Are grades given out to easily? Has training been toned down to such an extent that people are getting the watered down version of the art to make it easier for them?

In days gone by a student had to prove his worth to the teacher or the teacher would not teach him. A teacher was only as good as his students, if his students were bad no one would go to him to be taught therefor teachers were very selective and strict with there students.

Cooler

 

My Sensei are forever mentioning how easy we have it. Saying that they had to do basics and kata without breaks and falls on the floor, not mats. That warm ups had been more hard work than the actual training!!

What went wrong? Were the students being driven away in masses because of this level of training?

This is only my assumption for why things have got "easier" for students...

Maybe parents were not happy to send their children to uninsured and quite frankly tentative clubs that are independents. So regulatory bodies were set up and these need paying for. Once you had this body affiliated to your club you could perhaps advertise better (?) Then when the students gets to this club, it comes back after each session unable to say their own name due to the strong and hard training structure that they have been put through. Business lost!

So in order to keep the "masses" happy, the MA have had to bend to the publics way of thinking. To accomodate all levels of skill, not just the strong, hardy types, but the ones that just want to improve themselves without getting killed during it.

I'm probably wrong - but it was fun!

Melanie

 

I personally feel that this is where money comes in. When I posted 'Idealist/Realist or Capitalist', I was getting at this very thing. Yet there is no reason, in this age of information, that an Instructor should be unable to verify whether his teaching method is scientifically sound.

If an art is too easy to get involved with, then a student is unlikely to stick it

If an art costs money to practice, then it is inevitably compromised.

The whole world has better understanding of Marketing these days. I saw a MacDonalds in Cairo a few years ago. Change is inevitable. Commercialisation of the arts is probably inevitable also.

 

When I first started training all thoughs years ago (gets dewy eyes and misty vision) I didn't actually realise what a brutal club I was training in because I had no point ot reference. We did all the daft things that have been mentioned, an hour of circuit training before the actual two hours of training, throws/grappling without mats(this was restricted to seniors and done only once a month) and full contact knockdown. When i asked my sensei 'how long until I get my black belt' I was told if I trained for at least two/three hours three times a week plus fitness training I'd probably be 'considered' in about ten years, I was quite happy with this. Imagine my suprise a couple of years ago when i was taking to the old bugger when he told me that they (the senior instructors of our style) had recently revised the grading system and were looking at 4 year black belts, why? we need people through the door to pay for the rent/equipment he said.

I suppose many people would think that i'd be gutted that i'd put so much effort in whereas now people get it much easier, but I'm just sad that it has to be this way these days.

 

Mel asked: What went wrong? people have become softer than they were years ago. People have become more law suite crazy so instructors have had to weaken their class so that they may be able to teach without thinkin they my have to go to court cause someone rooled their anckle. Then i think you have a lot of BOGUS TEACHERS. In it for the money, dont care about the students, dont care about their style and dont care about the history of the martial arts. If you have a few grand they will put a black bet on you faster that you can think. Ive seen that a lot around here.

*LOL* I just dont like to see the same school on every corner. Where im moving i know of 2 huge school that have 12+ location. you see their adds on TV, the paper, mags. Then you go in there and the whole school is black belts. Their big add is "Get yout black belt in no time at all" Classes cost more than people pay for rent. and the teachers are lacking something.

The days i find myself in this for the money is the day i hope (Mel, Jack and Forbes kick me in the head). I will stop teaching.

 

You'll have to bend down so I can kick you in the head. LOL

Cooler

 

I think it depends on the school.... There seems to be two factions of martial arts now, the real hard training people who have a passion for the arts, and the McDojo where the instructor (usually a good instructor that decided the money was better) cares about nothing more than your check not bouncing. There are schools here where as long as you attend a belt teasting and pay your fees you will pass, no matter what your knowledge is or isn't. I don't think it is everywhere though, just about half and half (which is more than bad enough).

Rob

 

Congratulations Waya.........'McDojo' explains the whole thing so well. lol. Then again, the Japanese started exporting Karate before the Americans sold Burgers in every town over here.

 

While there are a number of martial arts clubs in Edinburgh I am not aware of many "McDojos". From what I can gather it is not a very profitable business in the UK.

 

The point is that attempts are made at 'McDojos', which ruins things for the real connysewers ( spelling failed me, but hey ).

A lot of people spend time in the arts trying to crack the 'Inner Circle', when their time would have been better spent mimicking the movements of a mating ferret.

It's not always about financial gain, but of position, power and prestige.

Oops I'm ranting again are'nt I.

Anybody wanna join Amway???

 

I think there you have touched on rank being more important than skill or knowledge, which is also seen alot. Don't get me wrong, I have alot of respect for most people higher rank than I am because they have more knowledge. But I don't have the same respect for say a 5th Dan that more or less bought their belt or received it by some other means that has nothing to do with how much they have learned and their experience or skill.

Rob

 

Hey all
I think sure, MA are overly commercialized,but i think this is often influenced by its enviroment.And the movitvation of its instructors.

People who are truly searching for arts that they are happy with will move on,and certianly there is probaly a school out there to suit everyone.

I would like to point out that MA instruction used to be interconnected with Combat industries,This is no longer the trend,with many instructors happily admitting no involvement in volience/combat at all.But then again not all people go to schools just to learn to beat someone up,in fact I would say that most schools offer much more then just combat training.

Where I find this all coming apart is when the not so hard core schools start preaching there combat abilites when they are more suited to the comp circuit.

I just feel none of this is bad ,there will always be schools with lots of forms and colorful uniforms,just as there are schools with no forms and lots of fighting,and groups who are aligned with Security work and some aligned with Health industries.

If people are getting value for money is something that is up to them to decide.

I guesss this leads into stardarisation tests(something personally I don't agree with) to bring about regualation within the industry,but I can not see how this would be done.

Rank
This is another topic that gets me going,currently I am with a schools which has none,no grades no sashs,when we get together its in a circle not lines,respect is given to all.Its not for everyone but I really dig it.

 

McDojo...hahaha! I like the idea of everyone standing around in a circle.

I'm just really upset that my sensei would never let me wear a colourful 'cool' uniform.

 

Kat,

That's the first time I have ever heard of circle formations. Sounds like a very practical and fair thing to do. However, what is the drive behind getting your next grading? I have heard a fair bit recently about no belts and ranks. I think it is a brilliant idea personally, but I think this would only be suitable for adults. It becomes more personal as an adult about what drives you whereas with young children, they have a competitive streak and want to be like their peers. I don't know whether youngsters would be as interested if they couldn't earn a coloured belt?

What say everyone else?

Melanie

 

It's not a bad idea for advanced students or instructors, but it could make getting new students nearly impossible. And I'm not sure how the consistency in their training would be.

Rob

 

I like the idea of the circle thing. But at the same time a lot of people start into the martial arts for the idea of getting into shape and the "purdy belts" Until they start to become more dedicated (like we all are ;-) ) ive been told that the thought of getting a new "rank" is what kept them goin.

 

I think that yes, in some sense you can blaim the emmergance of commercial schools for the martial arts going soft.

They made it main stream, they made it something 'normal' people could do.

Before that it was only people who where nuts to start with training.

Perhaps many commercial schools have even lowered the standard, but I'm not so sure.

Are we talking martial arts or martial sports? Some of the lowest quality martial artists out there have a large collection of trophies.

The whole 10 years to BB is a load of crap, sorry about the crudness, but it just is.

Those instructors telling you that that trained in Okinawa or Japan or Korea or whatever while they where in the military for 12 - 18 months and came back with theres, maybe time moves different over there...

The truth is, if you get 1st & 2nd dans running schools, which is how this all started, 1st & 2nd dan aren't going to come quickly since your instructor is only those ranks.

But whatever the reasons, it doesn't matter what the time line is, belts/ranks are irrelevant if you can't do anything.

I'd rather give a shodan after 3 yrs and have 20 students left after 6 yrs than give a shodan after 6 years and 3 make it.

Rank is a retention tool, commercial schools recognise this and put it to use as such.

As to the quality of training, blaim tournaments and incompatant instructors, not commercial schools. Although they may be the reason we get more tournaments.

Over time less and less time is spent on non-tournament stuff in order to keep up with the other schools that are spending less time on other stuff, eventually tournament stuff is all that is done, the rest disappears, if it was even there.

Also the style of teaching was pretty brutal, remember ex-marines teaching it, as it became mainstream the boot camp attitude had to go. It did, but with it went the hard training, which didn't have to.

You can push students hard, you just gotta give them water, treat them with respect and don't come accross as a drill sargent.

Unfortuantly thats all many ever learnt to do, when they went soft, they over did it and went completely soft.

I run a commercial school, going soft doesn't work for me.

They come in, they want to get in shape, they want to learn karate. I push them hard, they see results, they learn karate, they stay.

I don't do competitions at all, no one complains. As a result I can spend time training whatever I want, not just kata as a performance art and point fighting.

I have had a few come over from the "traditional" schools, Kata and kumite under tournament rules, and now they probably wouldn't do as well in competitions, but we'll never now. But We do know they are in a lot better shape, and are a lot more comfortable fighting with a lot less rules. (Ever get mount on a tournament only practitioner?)

All that being said there are some that are just in it for the money, doing this full-time the money certainely plays a part for me, but I strongly believe that the best way to do this is to have long term students. The way to do that is to not water it down, and actually un-waterdown anything I can. No one will stay in a place that gives them little benefit, especially if you overcharge them. Which means spending more money on advertising, which means again raising the fees, and attracting more low grade students that quit shortly after.

In short, while commerciallisation hasn't been all good, it certainely hasn't been all bad. We have better facilities, more students, more classes, more equipment and are more often more motivated to change things and improve things as it is our life.

 

OK Whats the deal with this:

"The truth is, if you get 1st & 2nd dans running schools, which is how this all started, 1st & 2nd dan aren't going to come quickly since your instructor is only those ranks."

Im sorry but im testing soon for my 2nd dan and i run a school as well. Our students are not held back due to them getting close to my rank. I love it when i see someone get promoted through me. The only reason that they would be help back is because they dont know what they should and are not up to the level that they should be. Our students have to meet so many hours and so many months before they are even thought about being tested. As of now we havent had any student held back just student that have advanced faster than most do. So it might be best when you single out a group of people to talk about that you use "MOST" and not make it sound like all of them.

-Chazz

 

and do you get your students up to Shodan in under 2 years?

Do you only have 3-4 years training to be almost nidan?

Do you have to fly someone from asia in, or go to them to get such a test done?

Things changed long before you opened your school. Now shodan is considered a high level grade and takes longer. Before it was a beginners grade and the only way a shodan would teach was if there was absolutely no one else.

The meaning of shodan has changed since rank was introduced, I gave what I believe the reasons for said change to be. But with shodan taking longer, the level of competence for shodan also went up. So much so that many now consider it a instructors license.

The problem is those schools are the same schools that complain about others lowering there standards, when in fact it was them who raised the standards. Perhaps, if in fact they did lower them, they are a little closer to the original meaning of the rank then those that allow teaching at shodan.

However I was referring to a historical theory, not modern practices, I apologise that it seemed otherwise.

Now rank can mean so many things it is pretty meaningless in the big picture of things.

 

Hey Mel
I should explain that our school is made up of people with a fair bit of experience in different arts and have searched out there teacher,this does create a sort of mature atmosphere(in fact there is no one in the class under 28).Our instructor doesn't advertise and its not his sole source of income,he is however passionate about his art,just not about formalities.(we even call him by his first name).Given his lack of burden to keep anything afloat he can concentrate on training us.

A reason the circle works for us is the almost complete usuage of partner work in training,and changeing partners after every drill.Instruction is done as much by the instructor as by your partner.

I get the vibe that most of the people posting are from the Karate/Tae Kwon Do style approach,which is quite different from say Boxing or Chinese MA approach.