Self Defence ~ Myth or Reality

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Judderman, Jul 28, 2004.

  1. Judderman

    Judderman 'Ello darlin'

    I thought it might be an idea to put some of those myths about self defence to bed. So heres the opportunity to prove or disprove some of the phrases you hear in this areana.

    To start things off...(a nice recent one)...driving the nose into the brain can kill

    I'll give my two peneth. Horsetroughhippoburger.

    Ok there are two parts to this first driving the nose into the brain. The technique which is often attributed is striking the nose in such a fashion that top of the nasal bone shatters into fine slithers, which are then forced into the brain like a knife. okay, lets break this down (no pun intended):
    1) If you imagine the nasal bone to be an arch, you require the two "walls" to break forming your slither.
    2)Next you will require the connection of the nasal and frontal bone to break at the arch's apex.
    3) Prior to bone is some flexable cartilage, which as a tendancy to break prior to the bone, making an accurate break difficult.

    Lets look at the next part can kill. The caveat here is it can kill, so we are looking at probabilities. If the shaft you have created is then forced along its natural line (at about 45o) then it will enter the frontal lobe part of the brain. To save me typing it all out, use this link for the function of the frontal lobes. You'll notice that there is no mention of death. But we are looking at probabilities. It would not be unreasonable to assume that if sharp bone fragments entered the brain then they could cause a great deal of damage, especially when combined with a concusion (brainshake). Left untreated it is not a dramtic leap of faith to accept that if the brain were bleeding from two, quite serious injuries that death could occur. The time period of this could be anything from a few hours to a few days.

    So to conclude. The accuracy and force required to do this, without causing the bone to smash, would be quite a feat in itself. One only has to look at the various full contact fights around (Muay Thai, K1, UFC ets) to see the result of a devastating blow to the nose, yet there are no deaths as a result. IMO it is highly improbable that death will occur (especially instantly as portrayed in the movies) as a direct result of bone fragments of the nose entering the brain itself. It is more probable that death would occur as an indirect result of a blunt trauma to the face.

    Any other thoughts?

    Any other examples?
     
  2. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Great thread. How about:

    Myth: Groin strikes are dehabilitiating.

    Truth: They hurt. Often a lot. But unlike America's Funniest Home Videos, they will not necessarily double over a person, grabbing their privates in pain, in an adrenaline fueled steet confrontation. In fact they typically only get folks madder. And from personal experience, it's possible to continue fighting after being hit there.

    If by chance you crush a testicle, then it's a different story. But the body is pretty well equipped to protect against this.
     
  3. Judderman

    Judderman 'Ello darlin'

    Nice start Matt.

    Couple of questions though. Are you saying that adrenaline is the only reason that a strike to the groin is not as effective as people think? Are you making a differentiation between the groin and testicles?
     
  4. Scarlet Mist

    Scarlet Mist Banned Banned

    I really don't see how a strike would crush a testicle. Testicles give, and one you feel the crushing force you would flinch and your testicles would be moved out of the way. So unless someones stands over you while you're on the ground and stands on your nuts and pushes down, you should be fine.
     
  5. Judderman

    Judderman 'Ello darlin'

    A reasonable point SM. However if the testicles are the target, then a flicking action or a crushing action are probably best. These need to be done as a "surprise" strike or your opponent will react as you have described.

    Crushing the scrotum against the pelvis or leg is difficult, but not impossible. The flick causes a shock effect which is more uncomfortable than painful.
     
  6. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    How about this one:

    "If you defend yourself you will get in trouble"

    AAARRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!! Not true, not true, not true....etc

    Remember you are convicted more by what you SAY rather than what you do.
     
  7. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Adrenal pain control is the biggest reason. Anatomy figures in as well. So does general pain threshold, targeting and even things like pant's tightness.

    The big issue is that media conditions us to believe that a blow to the jewels is dehibilitating. And having that mental model broken in a self defense conflict is a dangerous thing.


    SM your right, crushing a testicle is a very unlikely occurance. Thus we can connect that debilitating someone with a strike to the groin alone as very unlikely.

    On a similiar note the myth of "If I'm attacker I'll just *insert technique* and he'll be taken care of" is another of my particular favorites.

    - Matt
     
  8. KRONOS

    KRONOS Valued Member

    I think it is ridiculous how far the kick or punch/grasp to the testicles has evolved. Sure when they are hit on accident, we double over in pain, but that is usually just in the anticipation of pain which we know will come but usually doesn't arrive for 5 to 30 seconds. That is even without trying to block or suppress the pain, or the adrenaline that comes from a fight/confrontation. Teaching women self-defense classes where that is taught I think only serves to put a women in greater danger because the only result is a now enraged attacker with 30 seconds or more to retaliate. There should be a list of attacks devised by men that are banned from being taught as self-defense against a man.
    Running really fast is still my favorite defense.
     
  9. cybermonk

    cybermonk New Member

    The myth of the untrained man from the street who is hard as nails, ex pro boxer and current UFC champion.

    I have had a lot of fights in different countries throughout the years and have in no way encountered this guy, I havent encountered untrained people that could get me off my feet when confrontation has already arisen, havent encountered the guy who you keep hitting he keeps comming back for several minutes, havent encountered the man who you smash his wrist against your knee and he says :"Bah, I dont need that wrist, im still going to kill you!!"

    This myth is one of my favorites as what it is is nothing more than a very exagerated version of someone who has very limited fighting ability but uses his street smarts to get the best of you. Most untrained people in the street arent a match in a 1on1 unarmed. Sure they are dangerous but not because they are ex pro boxers, or have the ability of a UFC champion, they are dangerous because they pretend everything is cool and then half a second later try to headbutt you, or they leave a place and when you come out 5 of his mates are outside or he says something like "here let me get a cigar" and pops out a knife, or spices your drink etc.
     
  10. Capt Ann

    Capt Ann Valued Member

    How about "I'm trained in _____ style (insert name here), so I can take care of myself in any situation."

    IMO, overconfidence among martial artists is a big problem. There is no style and no training so effective that it can always defend you in every situation. There is always someone bigger, stronger, or with bigger/stronger/more friends on hand. I don't care how many belts you have in how many lethal styles, or how much 'street experience' you have, or who your sifu/sensei/master knew. You can't block bullets.

    Awareness, good sense, and a little humility about all your training, can go a long way to keeping you out of trouble.
     
  11. KRONOS

    KRONOS Valued Member

    How about the commercial for "Tae-Bo" it says you can learn self defense.
    Is that some of the overconfidence you're talking about.
    Me and my friends were jumped by a guy with nunchakus, he still couldn't stunt our adrenaline despite numerous blows to our skulls. The only reason we stopped fighting back and ran was out of pure frustration at not being able to get in without taking a wack on the head.
    I agree I don't think humility is emphasized enough. I mean we survived a weapon that's taught in MA schools with the idea that it is even more destructive than the punches/ strikes that are taught.
     
  12. d33pthought

    d33pthought New Member

    Self defense myth: Thinking a drunk guy (or guys) is/are easy prey just because they're stoopid drunk. Now, I learned from personal experience that a group of drunk guys are every bit as irrational and dangerous as the same group of sober guys. Granted, I wasn't trained in the art of anti-drunken boxing, and was lacking my trusty bo staff of sobriety.
     
  13. Judderman

    Judderman 'Ello darlin'

    Ok. Keeping on track with a few posts...

    MattGiven that clothing, position of target and so on dispell the ol' "grab'n'twist" theory, would you say there is any merit in striking the groin area?

    HannibalHmmnn. "Trust me, I'm a policeman" springs to mind :D. So dispell the cynics (like me) could explain why what you say can be more dangerous than what you do? In short, what should we say?
     
  14. Judderman

    Judderman 'Ello darlin'

    A couple of other myths, although they are IMO...

    1) "Go for the eyes!". In essence a sensible suggestion, afterall if they can't see you, they can't hit you (or stop you hitting them!) but, the eyes are a small target which will be difficult to target whilst in motion, not to mention the affects of adrenaline. That said the eyes are a viable target, problem is when?

    2) "Side kick to the knee to break it". Now I'll be the first to admit that I've never done this, nor seen it done, so I'm not convinced. I'll except that a kick to the knee can damage tendons etc but to "break" it? Really?? I might even except that you could get lucky and hit the knee cap to cause some really nasty pain, but "break" it? Really?? I would more expect that the effect would be to fold it along its natural line.
     
  15. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Yes. While it's not the first target I would go for, it does cause pain. And it can be used as part of a successful combination. Specific targets for striking are important. However I'd argue that throwing punches in bunches, regardless of the combination (within reason) is far more important.

    A kick to the knee can definitely be effective. However, I've seen lots of people, while executing self defense in a classroom environment deliver a side kick to the front of the knee. And that's going to have little to know effect (provided the leg isn't locked out). And you're also right in that a kick to the side of the knee may result in a natural folding rather than a break. Not a bad thing, but it means you need to have a follow up technique in mind that accounts for the height shift the previous technique has caused.

    - Matt
     
  16. cybermonk

    cybermonk New Member

    I agree, if the knee is bent its almost imposible to break, just like any other join whenever you are taught to break an elbow you are always taught a previous techinique to get it to be locked out, I have never been taught to break an elbow while the arm is bent.

    Definately, a kick to the back of the knee is effective aswell, if the knee folds and this is an untrained person we are talking about here chances are he will fall.
     
  17. WingChun Lawyer

    WingChun Lawyer Modesty forbids more.

    You guys dissected quite a few myths, I think I will contribute with a bit of reality...

    Fact: glass is dangerous. Glasses of whisky are dangerous, broken bottles are dangerous, glass tables are dangerous. I saw a guy lose an obscene amount of blood in a nightclub after getting hit in the face with a glass - I was able to find the toilet by following the blood trail, and I am not exagerating. And I remember a doctor once mentioned that glass cuts (from broken bottles, for instance) are terrible to treat, because the cuts are much more irregular than those made by a knife.
     
  18. Scarlet Mist

    Scarlet Mist Banned Banned

    Fact:

    Running really fast is very likely to keep you safe.
    Chances are, if you're the potential victim you have a few cc's of adrenaline on your attacker, you'll be faster. I was a fat kid and I was slow - until I was chased by a few dogs, I felt like I was running slowly, but in reality I was outrunning the dogs ... that's fast for a fat little kid.

    Myth:

    If you cry you'll die from high blood pressure because tears are salty.
    You will not die because tears are salty, but because whoevers about to attack you is gonna kick your ass even worse for being a pansy.
     
  19. Kwajman

    Kwajman Penguin in paradise....

    Just a couple of thoughts.

    I saw a VERY big man faint after being kicked in the nards during a tournament. Turned out he wans't wearing a cup and DID crush a testicle. Had to have surgery.

    Its virtually impossible to kill someone by the nasal bone thing. Its too short to penetrate most peoples frontal sinus and do any real damage. It might FEEL like your dying, or you WANT to die, but it won't.

    Attacking the eyes. It might work because people will be distracted if your poking around in their eye area, might cause them to want to protect their SECOND most important pair of balls (eye) :rolleyes:
     
  20. Scarlet Mist

    Scarlet Mist Banned Banned

    Well that sucks. Can he still have kids?
     

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