Broadsword vs. Spear

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by little_monkey, Jul 23, 2004.

  1. little_monkey

    little_monkey New Member

    There has always been a weapon rivalry throught the armies in ancient china. The broadsword, light, one handed, durable and effective. The spear: good reach, defensive, a most popular weapon. Which do you prefer?
     
  2. bcullen

    bcullen They are all perfect.

    Descions, descions....Why choose, the Pu dao is both :D ,Ok the broadsword
     

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  3. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Well, I'm really most into WMA and european historical stuff, but if some of the same physics apply (which I do think it does), my brain would go for the spear (reach, cheap to produce, quick), whereas my hart would go for the sword (form, status, complexity to make and to use)
     
  4. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    This is an excellent question and one ironically discussed before within my dojo, that specifically; which would be the better weapon the Katana or Yari (essentially the same question posed here)

    Each weapon has its own merits however, one must also remember the weapon its self isn't what causes the damage, its the exponant using it which matters, thusly, a very skilled swordsman is going to defeat a porrly skilled spearman and obviously visa versa.

    The interesting situation unfolds however, when we have roughly equally skilled individuals with the weapons. This is where the merits of those weapons fall into consideration.

    Now, as a long standing student of Aikikai Aikido (and Muso Shinden Iaido) I'm not really qualified to talk of the Yari however, the Jo (a shorter length stick) is used in a similar way so, I can speak of the characteristics with some confidence.

    Accepting that the main advantage of the spear is its reach and power/thrust ratio, a swordsman must therefore look to close the distance (Ma-ai) inorder to be effective with the katana.

    Accepting the sword can be manipulated in several directions far quicker than a spear (because its shorter and lighter) the Speraman will want to maintain his distance advantage.

    On to the next level... Strategy

    Assuming both opponents are skilled in both weapons (often the case), we have a situation where advantage and disadvantage is know by all. In this situation the key to success is the strategy employed by either party to gain advantage. This does not require superior skill in technique (although that would increase the advantage as mentioned before).

    Personally (having trained in MSR) I'd prefer my katana over the spear, but thats just my preference.

    Regards
     
  5. TaichiWave

    TaichiWave New Member

    For war you use Spears, for personal, close range, not so warrish fights u use swords. Main reason is that longer weapons grants an army better fighting power, because in war range is everything (as well as many other facts like formation and training). But it'd depend on the users, u can't give a bunch of farmers spears and have them fight elite swordsman. That'd be lopsided.
     
  6. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Tough one to call there.
    It was said in Medieval England that the greatest fear of a swordsman was the quarterstaff. A reputation well earned.

    The Bear.
     
  7. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member


    I'll side with Polar Bear on this one. Acording to my experience, an untrained person stands a far better chanse of surviving a fight if he uses a spear rather than a sword in a duel. When the elite swordman wins over a bunch of farmers, it's because he's ELITE, not because he's using a sword. If the peassents had been using swords vs. an ELITE spearfella (like Achilles in Troy), they'd been ****'ed much more surely than in your example.
    -IMHO :)
     
  8. Jackie Li

    Jackie Li Valued Member

    I would have to chose broadsword.
     
  9. d33pthought

    d33pthought New Member

    Well, you could always hack the spearhead off with the broadsword, but more probably, the spearguy would win because of l337 poking skillz and at least twice the range of the swordguy. Not to mention the fact that a spear can easily double for a quarterstaff.
     
  10. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    I prefer a sword, because I like swords. Swords are cool.
     
  11. cybermonk

    cybermonk New Member

    For me it depends, if im in horseback I would pick the sword, if im on foot I would choose the spear.
     
  12. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    He he, you watch far too many movies.

    The Bear.
     
  13. Kurai Unkai

    Kurai Unkai Valued Member

    My 2 Cents

    Hello all. I've enjoyed reading the posts in this forum, especially the comparison of the Katana with the Jo, and I can't stop myself from replying to the thread. This is my first post, so if I violate any points of etiquette please be merciful. :)

    I've been studying Kounryushui Bujutsu for six years now, and have been using a Katana from day one. Three years ago I began intensively studying the Sojutsu (combative spearmanship) curriculum and have been sparring with spears and swords ever since. With the Katana and Yari being my two personal favorites so far as weaponry is concerned, this thread is close to my heart and I hope what I have to offer is worth reading. That said. . .

    Katana vs. Yari
    I think the rivalry between these two weapons stems from them both being considered a primary weapon to carry into battle. They both had their moments in the sun where they were "the weapon to beat," with many martial arts developing techniques and weapons designed to defeat them. It's only natural that the two weapons at the top of the food chain would constanty vie for that top spot. But they both have their advantages and their disadvantages, especially when facing off against one another, so it's very difficult, if not impossible to actually say "which is better." They both play different games, and they both play them very well.

    From my own experiences watching them and using them, though, a novice spearman seems able to take down an experienced swordsman about 80% of the time. I'm not quite sure why this is, but my guess is that it comes from the range and the simplicity of use that come with the spear. It doesn't have to be this way, though, as there are tricks and tactics that both weapons can employ against one another, and that's what I want to make this post about.

    First the assumptions: For the sake of this analysis, I'm assuming that it's a one-on-one scenario. The Katana is of standard length (I personally prefer a 29 inch blade with a 12 inch tsuka), and has the stardard oval-shaped or circular guard (though I don't care much for this design, and prefer to have at least one or two square corners on my tsuba, but it won't matter much for this scenario). The Yari in this discussion will have a shaft about the length of the wielder's outstretched arms (that's my favorite length, though I'll occasionally use a shorter weapon). The spearhead will be a Sankaku (triangular) design with no cutting edge, and there will be no guard, parrying bar, or tassle below the blade (again, this is a personal matter. . .though I don't care much for tsuba or tassles on my spears, I do like parrying bars). The fight will be on even terms, meaning neither is fighting up or downhill, fighting with their back to the sun, or stashing a 9mm in their kimono. Neither has the element of surprise, and neither is a novice, and both are fighting with the intent to defeat the other.

    Most of the advantages here are on the side of the Yari. These are range, speed, and maneuverability. The biggest advantage of the Katana is its versatility, meaning it can work comfortably at the long range of the Yari's blade and at the close range needed to dispatch the wielder. The Yari works primarily with straight lines and triangles, and the Katana primarily with arcs and circles (but this doesn't mean they are restricted to them). The disadvantages of the Yari are its comparative frailty (though this can be iffy, a heavier wood or metal can be used at the sacrifice of a bit of speed, and Chinese spears seem to be able to withstand a lot of punishment), a requirement to use both hands to wield it effectively, and a definite weakness at extremely close ranges.

    So now the actual fight. . .First from the side of the Katana.
    When you ask a swordsman how he'd deal with a spear, the response seems to almost always be "get in close." That's fine, but it's also obvious. Not only does the spearman know you're going to do this, but he's probably counting on it, too. So in a fight that's all about range, yes the swordsman has to close the gap, but it has to be done in a way that the spearman isn't ready for.

    The first option is distraction. Remember that Wakizashi or Tanto you've got slung in your belt? Or that sharp little spike sticking up from your Saya? Or even the Saya itself? Throw it. Don't just stand there and see if it hits anything or not, though. As soon as the weapon leaves your hand you should be moving in to kill him while he's saying "ow" or regaining his posture. Don't be reckless though and get yourself impaled because the spearman saw it coming and simply sidestepped. The success of this technique will most likely hinge on how well you've hidden the throw. It has to come from nowhere. . .not with a big advertizement saying "here it comes."

    So you've thrown your tanto, your kugi, your saya. . .your clip is empty. . .and he's still standing there with his spear. What now? The swordsman has to get past that spearhead to get to the spearman. There are several ways of doing this. . .some good and some not so good.

    A very popular tactic is to grab the shaft of the spear. If this is done with perfect timing and presicion, great. . .go hack him. But while very good in theory, there are a couple of big problems with this tactic in practice. First of all, if you are close enough to grab his weapon, he's close enough to stab you with it, so you have entered into a dangerous zone with a move that is not immediately threatening to the well-being of the spearman. Also, spearmen generally have a wide range of techniques to break someone's grip on their spear, and most of them end with swordsman dangerously off-balance. (In my own experience, I've only come across one opponent who could both consistently grasp my spear and move quickly enough to exploit it. His weapon of choice was an O-Kusari, a seven-foot long chain with small weights at both ends (or a rope and tennis balls in our case), and so our effective fighting ranges were both about six or seven feet, with both of us waiting for the other to make the first move. Our fights usually ended up being empty hand striking/grappling matches.) You also have to watch out for deterrents. If a spearman is terrified of his spear being captured, he may have taken precautions like putting small spikes or blades behind the spearhead or covering a foot or so of the shaft in a slippery oil. And all of this is not to mention that the spear will be in motion, and it's a tough thing to catch.

    Another favorite tactic is to lop off the spearhead. While slightly better than the "grab the weapon" tactic, it still suffers some difficulties when put into practice. As before, if you're close enough to hack the spearhead, odds are you're close enough to get hit. The next problem is that not many people know how to do this well. The spear is not just going to hover around waiting for you to cut it. . .You're going to have to catch it in motion, and a straight downward cut probably isn't going to do it. If you cut straight downward into a spear that is moving, there's a chance of the Katana breaking under the stress, depending on how much force the wielder has put into the push or pull of the spear. Even if it doesn't, the odds of it cutting all the way through are not terribly high because of the chance of being moved off-line and of the difficulty in getting through both the wood and the tang. Most likely you'll just knock their weapon downward, which may or may not be a good thing. If you're going to sever that spearhead no matter what, you'll have to hit on an angle. Forty-Five degrees is best, but not absolutely necessary, and you want to be cutting downward and away from the spearman. The benefit of this cut is that it will pull the spearman forward when it digs in, hopefully setting all of his weight on his lead leg and sticking him there long enough for you to follow up your attack. Be warned, though. Not every spearman will just look at his broken weapon and then back to you with a tear in his eye. More likely they'll just set themselves to beating you senseless with their heavy stick, and there's a good chance it's still sharp.

    This leaves parrying the weapon or avoiding it altogether. One of the best strategies in my experience (and the one that my instructors almost always use to defeat my spear) is to stretch out the spearman. Hover just where he thinks he can reach you, and then retreat from the attack. Make him come forward, and wait for the moment when he overcommits and sinks his weight onto his lead leg. That's your moment to strike. Still no easy matter, though, because you first have to survive his attack. If you're going to do this by parrying his spear, there are two things you must remember. First is not to think about where the spear is coming from, but where it is going. . . And the second is not to be there when it gets there. If you don't move your body, the speed of the thrust will in all likelyhood beat your parry. If you move to the side, you're now inside the reach of that spear and the door is open for your attack.

    The best place to send a spear with a parry or a clash is downward. If it's in the dirt there are fewer places for it to maneuver, and an upward strike with a spear is very weak from that position. It also gives you a chance to step on it or otherwise pin it to the ground. And it does one more thing. . .It stretches out the spearman's lead arm. Angels sing at this sight. Once that arm is stretched, you've got an easy target. Take it. The rest is a no-brainer. Sending it upward or to the sides (or any angle, really), can work too, but these moves don't expose targets quite so easily and can be quickly recovered from by a quick-thinking spearman. If you're closing the distance either during or immediately after your clash or parry, however, there's a good chance of you reaching him before he recovers.

    The last tactic I'll mention is the use of a second weapon. Having a defensive tool in your off hand lets you simultaneously engage the spear and the wielder by holding aside his weapon as you close ground. The Wakizashi and Tanto are the most common, a Kama (sickle) is among the most useful (and my personal favorite. . .but again this is preference, not necessarily a statement of fact), and even the Saya is a good choice. The most dangerous pair I've come up against are two Katana (the favorite choice of my Kenjutsu instructor), the benefits being both range and offensive power in both weapons, instead of simply a "sword and shield" approach. Speaking of shields, there's nothing wrong with taking a Kame (tortise shell shield) into this fight either. . .Its dual use as a defensive and offensive tool can be surprising, especially when it's flipped into offensive striking techniques. Another very dangerous combination of weapons I've seen used against a spear are that shield and a small bamboo hoop about 20 inches in diameter, but that's getting off-track.

    One more thing to bear in mind while we're thinking defensively. . .Very few great warriors made their names fighting in their pajamas. Armor was a factor. Spears are very good at getting through armor. They've got a lot of power directly behind a straight-on attack, but there's still a chance for you to survive a hit if you've got good armor. There are two things working in your favor. . .Movement and body shape. To test this, run a little experiment: First get big flat piece of wood and a throwing weapon of your choice. Set it against a wall and throw. No problem, right? Penetrates easily. Now get a two liter bottle filled with water and hang it from a tree branch with a length of string. Get that spike or star and have at it. Not as easy. . .but not impossible. There will be a lot of bouncing off, but all it demands is a bit more precision. But now, take that cylinder and spin it. While it's spinning, throw something at it, and see how easy it is to get consistent deep penetration. This same principle works with your armor and his spear. If your body is rotating, there's a greater chance of your armor defelcting his weapon and giving you a chance to counterattack.

    For the actual counterattack itself, you're going to be in close, and the closer the better. This often means, however, getting in closer than the comfortable range of the Katana. Push-Cuts are your best friends here. . With your left hand pushing behind the blade, you can get power into your cuts at a very close range, and you really only need one or two before you can step away and revoke his birth certificate. Thrusts are nice too because of their speed, but really once you're close enough to consider your options, the most difficult part of the fight is over.

    So now the Yari. . .
    The best place for you to be is far enough away that the swordsman cannot reach you, but close enough for you to reach him. Problem is, though, that the swordsman isn't just going to hover there and let you stick him. You'll need to put him there without him knowing it. But how?

    The first option is outright deception. One of my favorite tricks (and this is a dirty trick, mind you), is to begin the fight holding the center of you spear so that only three or so feet of the weapon is forward. This is the nice, comfortable and familiar range that most swordsmen know and love as their "crossed-swords" range for beginning a match. If you're not quite sure what I'm talking about, go watch a kendo match and look at where they begin. If you're lucky and he's not paying attention, he'll slip into that familiar mindset and treat you like a swordsman, staying just out of sword range, but well within spear range. Then it's just a matter of shifting your rear hand and sticking him. Don't give him time to realize his mistake, though. By the time he's taken his posture he should be dead.

    If the swordsman doesn't fall for this, though, you'll have to work to get him into striking distance. Again, deception is the best way to accomplish this. As a general rule, I never hold more than half the length of my Yari in front of me. The more that's out, the further away the swordsman will stay, and the easier it will be for him to breach the range. Pointing the spearhead at his eyes will give you some room to work with. Because he'll be looking down a straight line, if you keep the blade pointed at his eyes it will be difficult for him to track changes in range by watching it. He can circumvent this by watching your feet and body position, but you'd be surprised how focused some people will be on the little shiny blade.

    A barrage of fast, short range thrusts is (for me) the easiest way of taking him off balance and/or getting him into my range. Launching a couple of thrusts at him may make him give away his plan by moving too soon. If he just stands there and tries to parry, keep thrusting from different angles until he's overwhelmed or makes an obvious error. Just watch where he moves his weapon and work around it. So long as he's busy fending off all of your thrusts, he's not thinking about how he's going to kill you, and it becomes simply a matter of time before he either makes a critical mistake or gets sick of swatting flies and steps out of range. Thrusting toward the face and feet for these feints seem to work best, because they're the targets most likely to illicit a response that takes the swordsman off balance. Watch those targets. If his head moves back and goes further back than his feet, he's an easy target. If he kicks his feet back to avoid a low thrust, his head will slip forward and be exposed. If he maintains proper footwork and keeps his balance, though, it's time for a new plan.

    More fast feinting thrusts from different angles, but circle him as you thrust. After each thrust, move very very slightly closer to him, but slide your rear hand up the spear and keep thrusting at the same range. This is called "Thrusting Through the Blizzard." The intent is to use this barrage of thrusts to hide the fact that you're slowly moving closer until it's too late and that final long range thrust finds its target.

    If speed thrusting isn't your thing, there's always mind games. Have you ever watched a nature show about snakes, and they show a cobra weaving its head back and forth in a hypnotic rythm before striking? A spear can work that way as well. By moving it back and forth, side to side or in slow circles, it's sometimes possible to enchant an opponent into matching that rythm. You'll see it in their body position or in their weapon if they fall for the trick, and which point it's time to strike, and it's very easy to hide a spear thrust behind a circle.

    So the swordsman is in range now, but how to get that killing thrust to work? Very rarely will a spear be thrust perfectly horizontally (meaning parallel to the ground), but there are exceptions. The reason for this in the eye of the swordsman. When coming in on an angle, the spearhead is actually above (most often) or below the shaft of the weapon. When the swordsman tries to parry the spearhead, oftentimes he'll parry too high (where the spearhead is) and instead only graze the shaft, allowing the thrust to continue unimpeded. This isn't something a spearman should rely on, but it's a common mistake that works in his favor. The exceptions I mentioned typically involve high or low thrusts. The face is a very good target for a horizontal plane attack, because thrusting straight at the eyes messes with the swordsman's depth perception on your weapon. Feet are also very good targets to chase with horizontal thrusts very low to the ground (called "Thrusting Through the Grass") because of the difficulty in deflecting an attack coming in that low. This isn't as easy with a spear that has no parrying bar because feet are phenomenally difficult targets to hit with a thrust, and you'll have to be careful not to lean your head forward into the range of the Katana or put yourself into a position that takes away from your mobility.

    Remember also that the Yari's blunt end (the Kontei) can be used as a striking weapon, especially if the swordsman has been baited into advancing. Often times there will be a metal cap on this end of the spear to counterbalance the weight of the spearhead. Chinese spears seem very capable as striking weapons with both ends of the spear because of the flexibility and strength of the shafts, but most Japanese Yari I have come across cannot take the stress of heavy striking attacks, especially with the spearhead. That blunt end comes in handy, though, especially since it's a part of the spear that the swordsman won't likely see until it comes into use (he's too concerned about being stabbed). The top of the head, the side of the head, and the swordsman's ankles are the best targets for these strikes. Wrists are very nice too, but hard to hit. Keep in mind, though, that any amount of armor will nullify these strikes because there simply won't be enough power behind the strike to affect the swordsman through his armor without the risk of breaking the spear. Also bear in mind that these strikes are not killing blows. . .they make him say "ow" and give you one or two heartbeats to maneuver the spearhead into him or to draw your knife and end it that way.


    Well, there's my two cents on the spear vs. sword rivalry. I love them both, and truly don't believe that either is a "superior" weapon. When it comes to which one I'd prefer, though, I like the post that summed it up as Heart vs. Head. If it was between these two weapons and the situation was "hey let's all go to the park and have fun showing off and sparring with each other" I'll take my sword almost every time. If the situation is "the Mongol Horde has taken over the parking lot downstairs and if you want to make it the store for your fabirc softener you'll have to fight through them," I'm reaching for my spear.

    Thanks for your time,
    -Kurai Unkai
     
  14. teacher

    teacher Valued Member

    Kurai welcome to MAP. That was one of the best first posts I've ever seen.
    Swords are great fun but I also like staffs and spears. Most everybody seems to be settling down into "it's the person not the weapon" which is nice.
    If you still feel the sword is far and away the better weapon I suspect you simply havent had the opportunity to play with big sticks. Not every MA class has the room required to swing a big stick.
     
  15. Neil-o-Mac

    Neil-o-Mac The Rev

    Isn't that more of a halberd, really? :p :D
     
  16. K_Coffin

    K_Coffin New Member

    Seems/looks a bit like a Naginata, which is an interesting weapon in itself.

    Excellent post there Kurai. Always good to meet new and well-informed Buyu. Enjoy MAP.
     
  17. Shantari

    Shantari Valued Member

    kurai, that is by far the best post that i have read in my life. you should seriously write a book or something. Id be the first to buy it. When it comes to spear vs sword. I take sides with the sword. I just like swords better. Plus, its the weilder not the weapon. A master martial artist who has trained years in the use of a sharpie, will always beat some bafoon with a sword,spear, any weapon u could possibly think of(-guns).
     
  18. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Kurai; I found your post most interresting as the tactics, problems and alternatives were very similar to my training and experience with the same kind of weapons in Weastern Martial Arts (spear vs. longsword).

    I've posted several times on this thread, as I find it just as fascinating as you do. It pleased me to se that someone studying it as thorough as you has come to the same conclution as me; that the spear will have the upper hand if two equally well trained opponents were to run -say ten matches vs. eachother. As I wrote earlier, my hart chooses the (long)sword, but my brain pics the spear if I were to choose a weapon for an untrained friend who were to face a duel and could choose between the two. I'd choose the longsword, as I've had 3 years of training with it :cool:

    Just for the specially interrested, I'll pester you with my experiences vs. spears in WMA-fighting:

    Spear vs. Longsword:
    Because of the slightly longer reach and the pressence of a proper crossguard, I'd say that the longswordwielder is a bit better of vs. a spear than if he'd used a Katana (provided he'd been trained)

    The essense is -as Kurai sais; to close in (called "Giokko Stretto" in Fiore's manual from 1410):
    One technique is to strike any thust hard down into the ground (which under ideal circomstances could lop the spearpoint off; but allso could cause your sword to bend -allthough not break as medieval european longswords are far to flexible to break) -then stepping in (and on the spearpoint to refrain the spearwielder to rais a block) -and striking the spearwielder with a false edge-cut (using the edge a Katana don't have).

    Another technique is to apply halfswording (where you hold your left hand 2/3 up the blade, and your right hand on the grip), sweeping the spear aside, close into the spearwielder and thrusting towards the face/throat.

    Spear vs. broadsword(/dagger/knife):
    With a onehand sword (broadsword) or a dagger/knife, your only asset is speed, and my experience is to use escreema/knifefightingtechniques plus biding your time to the correct moment. You still (as Kurai allso states) have to run the gauntlet past the sperarpoint and if the spearwielder outwits you or manages to keep the distance, you're usually shafted...
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2004
  19. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    well um
    Y know whats funny
    Im my group only the advnaced people are allowed to use any kind of polearm so its damn near impossible to close with a sword.

    But yeah anything thats long and pointy scares me.

    And Kurai knows his/her stuff


    OH nad my weapon for fighting long pointy things is a late medieval/early renaisance style zweihander some reach and its hackity
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2004
  20. bcullen

    bcullen They are all perfect.

    I guess it depends on your definition, but hey, one mans halbard is another mans painful death :D :p

    It's actually called the long handled or dashing sabre, so in CMA it's a (very) longhandled sword. Chinese halbards have a spear head and creasant or half moon blade(s). The Pu Dao is by Europian standards a halbard, like a short locharber ax. The kwan dao is another variation that could be called a halbard, in truth this more reasembals the Saxon great ax, the demo wushu models are 6-7' and under 7 lbs. The true combat steel version is 8' and weighs over 20lbs.
     

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    Last edited: Jul 31, 2004

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