Filipino Kuntaw?

[Ashton]

Hi All,

I'm a newbie here as well as to the Southeast Asian martial arts scene. I've been looking at some Kuntao & Silat and happened to run across a school that teaches Filpino Kuntaw www.planoselfdefense.com

Just wondering if anyone here could give me some info on Kuntaw as far as its origins, principles, techniques, mindset etc. Is it essentially the same art as Indonesian Kuntao? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. I was thinking of training in some Silat Serak in my area & wondered how compatible it might be with the Kuntaw.

[shootodog]

are you asking about tat kuntao or kuntaw? they are both fma. one is associated with southern silat (mindanao), the other is a style made in cebu (i think) and has no relation to silat (maybe escrima). one is a filipino adaptation of chinese kungfu the other isn't.

[Crucible]

I'd be very surprised if the school you found was teaching Philipine Kuntao. More likely its Vee Kuntao Arnis, or they practice Arnis or Escrima and might be instructers in Kuntao silat Detours, or they're doing Kuntao Lima Lima. Philipine Kuntao is about as rare as Mongolian ballroom dance(if that really exists my apologies). If it is Kuntao Silat Detours you'll find alot of combatibilty given that Pentjak Silat Serak was carried to the west by the Detours familiy

Kuntaw Lima-Lima is the method of defense developed by Carlos Lanada. He says his family learned it in Mindanao about 3 generations ago and then he added karate techniques to it. He's also stated he has no authority to talk about Kuntao spelled Kun-tao. Kuntao and Silat players from Mindanao who I've talked to have said(about Kuntaw Lima-Lima); "Its Karate, GOOD Karate, but Karate." If it orginally came from Mindanao its probably very diffrent now from what you'll see in Sulu, Tawi-Tawi, or Lanao del Sur.

Kuntao is the more traditional spelling, though due to Carlos Lanada's popularity some educational institutions in some of thier manuscipts have refered to the Kuntao in the southern Philipines as "Kuntaw".
Kuntao you'll find in the southern Philipines is most often practiced by the Samal or Tausug, but I've found recently that other tribes like the Maranao also practice Kuntao. Its diffrent then the Silat I've seen from Mindanao, which as per a conversation with Hadji Tanadjalan, "Silat is 80% groundfighting". The Kuntao I've witnessed is mostly stand up with brief crouching, but not like the Silat I've seen in which an entire atercation can happen from the ground. They're also fond of backfists, though that may vary from region to region. Its not uncommon in the Philipines for a Pesilat to have studied both Kuntao and Silat. Its seems they mostly learned in Tawi-Tawi but I think its dying out.

[Crucible]

"are you asking about tat kuntao or kuntaw? they are both fma. one is associated with southern silat (mindanao), the other is a style made in cebu (i think) and has no relation to silat (maybe escrima). one is a filipino adaptation of chinese kungfu the other isn't."
__________________
Actually they're both Filipino adaptations of chinese kungfu just how they were adapted and where is very diffrent. Probably the type of kung fu as well. Tat Kun tao was developed by Joe Go, I think he may have also gone by Joseph Milan, one of the early students of Balintawak Grandmaster Bacon. As shootodog stated it was developed in Cebu. Joe Go looked to find a way to combine the lethal simplicity of balintawak with his already existing 5 ancestor kung fu background and he developed Tat Kun tao. Much latter his art became more evading and lacked any blocks whatsoever, and he named the art Gokosha. "Go" his family name, and "kosha" sanskrit for an envelope or container. Basicly a container for his fighting art. Most people consider Gokosha and Tat kun tao to be two very distinct and diffrent arts, though in his latter years he focused alot more on Gokosha.

Langka Kuntao, or Kuntao Silat is acknowledged has having chinese origins, though given that its been in southern Mindanao for quite possible hundreds of years its become very Malay in practice and appearance. In a conversation I had with a Tausug practitioner, "We had it for so long its pretty much become our own thing."

I think generally when people say Kuntao in context to the Philipines they are refering to the kuntao practiced by Samal, Tausug and other tribes. But it can also be used as a catch all term for chinese arts anywhere in the south east asia(as per GM Joe Go's usage). In the States I'd say 98% of the time if its kuntao, they probably studied some pangamut, chinese arts and blended them into a fusion, as opposed to something indigenious to Mindanao. Not to say whatever they're doing isn't devasting, imediate and lethal- just acknowleding that its distinct from what practiced in the southern Philipines.

Now here's a question I have, Carlos Lanada states that Kun-taw was developed in 1365. Though he says he has no authority to speak of Kun-tao(spelled Tao) he also states that Kun-taw was practiced by muslim royalty. Muslims I spoken with say they practice Kuntao or silat(usually both), so it seems like he's talking about the same thing even though the name is diffrent. Here's my question-Why 1365? I can see some parralels, the Sulu sultanate was founded in the 1300's. But, whay that date specificly? Is it pertaining to a specific event, individual or family? Any takers?
Respectfully

[krys]

Concerning maharlika kuntaw a Tausug (former student of Hadji) told me they took out the soft movements of silat and only kept the hard ones....

Kuntao you'll find in the southern Philipines is most often practiced by the Samal or Tausug, but I've found recently that other tribes like the Maranao also practice Kuntao. Its diffrent then the Silat I've seen from Mindanao, which as per a conversation with Hadji Tanadjalan, "Silat is 80% groundfighting". The Kuntao I've witnessed is mostly stand up with brief crouching, but not like the Silat I've seen in which an entire atercation can happen from the ground. They're also fond of backfists, though that may vary from region to region. Its not uncommon in the Philipines for a Pesilat to have studied both Kuntao and Silat. Its seems they mostly learned in Tawi-Tawi but I think its dying out.

The maranaos also practice a "puma" or "tiger" system, it uses very low crouching positions (called bawgrian, not really sure of the spelling), hadji showed me a little ...My samal friend is from Tawi Tawi, he told me the arts are diying out but some old men still practcice them there, in other islands of the sulu archipelago and in Sabah (>500000 filipinos are living there, mostly muslims). Did you witness Kuntao in the south? I will go there soon and intend to learn, my training partner will also be in the area (Lanao) next year to do some research...

Here's my question-Why 1365? I can see some parralels, the Sulu sultanate was founded in the 1300's. But, whay that date specificly? Is it pertaining to a specific event, individual or family? Any takers?

I too heard it was brought to the Philippines by chinese traders in the 14th century... By the way I learned that the early maguindanaoans had "ilmu" masters, and that the royalty studied with them, this may be after mid 15th century....


Thanks.

[Crucible]

My exposure to kuntao comes from 3 places, conversations with Hadji Yasheer Tanadjalan, Technical conversations regarding applications, formwork and history/origins with a Tausug pesilat and kuntao player, and someones college thesis on kuntao from the university of the philipines who did a fairly good job tracking down and interviewing kuntao players. One of her consultants for her thesis is Ibrahim Hoshin, who unless I'm mistaken was the coach of the Philipine pentjak silat team before Hadji. By the way, according to my notes my father took when when he met Ibrahim, Ibrahim learned Kuntao from his grandfather and an art called Sepring in Borneo. Sound familiar. He knows other things too, but thats what stood out in my mind. I havn't met him but look forward to tracking him down next time I'm in town. Track down my father next time your in the Philipines and see if he can get you a copy of the book, Bot Jocano may be able to find you one as well. Its written from a dancers perspective so don't expect "Philipine martial culture", but it does say things I hadn't read elsewhere.

[Crucible]

Who's your training partner? Is s/he from europe, or the Philipines(or somewhere else).

[Diego_Vega]

[QUOTE=Crucible] One of her consultants for her thesis is Ibrahim Hoshin, who unless I'm mistaken was the coach of the Philipine pentjak silat team before Hadji. By the way, according to my notes my father took when when he met Ibrahim, Ibrahim learned Kuntao from his grandfather and an art called Sepring in Borneo. /QUOTE]

I studied for a while at the Philippine Sports Commission with the coach of the PHilippine Silat team. Is this Ibrahim Hoshin, the same coach Nur Ibrahim Y Sanchez? He considers himself Tausug, but his mother, I believe, is Cebuano. My tagalog is very bad and I sometimes couldn't understand some of the things he said to me. I take it he isn't coach anymore? The sepring (pronounced "shipring"?) he taught me was mostly stand-up with a few ground techniques that was more striking from the ground and not so much grappling.

[Crucible]

I'm guessing it is, I'm putting together puzzle pieces as I haven't met him personally yet. What year did you train with him? Hadji became the Philisilat coach in 1986 but stepped down recently(Krys do you know when exactly?) when the sports commission lost funding. There's a new coach who I don't really know anything about. By the way, how long is a while, did you train a few days, a month or so? What kind of material did you go over?

[Crucible]

Another option is one of us may be refering to an assitant coach with the same first name. Was it the Head coach or an assitant you studied with? I'll check around and see if I can find you an awnser. It'll help when I find out the year you trained.

[Diego_Vega]

Originally Posted by Crucible

I'm guessing it is, I'm putting together puzzle pieces as I haven't met him personally yet. What year did you train with him? Hadji became the Philisilat coach in 1986 but stepped down recently(Krys do you know when exactly?) when the sports commission lost funding. There's a new coach who I don't really know anything about. By the way, how long is a while, did you train a few days, a month or so? What kind of material did you go over?

No, he was definitely the head coach. I talked to the assistant coaches too, but coach Nur was definitely in charge. When and how long? Not very long. I took private lessons with him once or twice a week for 4 months in 2002. Basically he taught me a couple of forms and the applications for the movements. All empty-hands. Is Hadji an older man, balding who wears military fatigues? Sometimes he teaches at CCP? Because I think I was introduced to him as well.

[Crucible]

Maybe you trained with the new coach, who's name I don't know. I don't know when Hadji stepped down, but given that you say it was the head coach, it had to be before 2002. I don't know if I'd call him an older man but he is balding. One thing you'll notice is his left arm is covered in bullet holes. I don't know where CCP is or what it stands for, but you'll often find Hadji at the park in Quezon City that you have to pass to get to the University of the Philipines. We often called it "the circle" for short because it was shaped like a big circle. Its possible it could've been Hadji you met but I've never seen him in military fatigues.

[Crucible]

Do you know who coach Nur trained with?

[Crucible]

By the way I'm going on vacation guys, so I wont be responding to anymore posts for a few weeks. Should be back 1st week of august.

[krys]

Who's your training partner? Is s/he from europe, or the Philipines(or somewhere else).

My training partner is Jean Philippe Busson, he is French although he got filipino residentship...
He became a Ligthning Arnis instructor while studying at UP Diliman.
He returns regularly to the islands for his PhD studies on filipino muslim politics. JP is one of Hadji's close students... We don't see each other enough to train FMAs effectively in Europe therefore we prefer to concentrate on systema-ROSS whenever we meet. Actually he will take one month private lessons with Vladimir Vassiliev in Toronto next month. JP will be back in the Philippines during December-February and also plans to train K. Illustrissimo with GM Diego.