Hello everyone, Please forgive me if this has been asked before, but another post on the General Discussion section sparked off my query. Does anybody know what difference there is between Wing Chun, Wing Tsun and Ving Tsun? Or are they all identical? Just curious!
Same style, just different ways of spelling the Cantonese name. Plus some branches use different spellings to stand out i.e. Wing Tsun(Leung Ting), Ving Tsun(Wong Sheng Leung)etc. Most schools will just spell it Wing Chun though
Allo Sandy, Heres my rough take on the different spellings... Ving Tsun- I believe its a more accurate translation and it kinda reflects the attitude of the clubs who use it i.e. the traditional way is best, so lots of forms and lots of chi sao. Wing Tsun- More often than not this will refer to a club of Leung Tings Association because he specifically altered the name of his association to differientate it from other schools of Wing Chun. Wing Chun- The most common name and so hard to generalise; you get ultra modern, ultra traditional clubs and ones in between and millions of prefixes such as authentic, traditional, modern, realistic etc. You may want to take a look at this thread for some more info http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8051 Hope that helps.
Its all about money and nothing else.Most are splinter groups and decide to call their Wing chun/ Wing Tsun /Ving Tsun etc etc what ever you wish to call it, something else.Most big organisations have copyright to their names i.e EWTO.Its all the same it is only depends on how good the Sifu is.
They started using Ving Tsun, or Wing Tsun after the use of Wing Chun. Because you all pronounce it pretty the same, they could change the name. Why they all spell it different is really just speculation, some say because short for Wing Chun is WC which was maken fun of during competitions by MAists of another style. Anyway, it's all the same
Aside from political differences, there ARE technical differences based on softness, how they redirect force, what their translation of the forsm are, etc. I talked to a guy who was about to learn the last (6th) form of the style after practicing for 4 years. I've known people that practice for literally decades and they're still perfecting their 4th form(meaning, our si-fu will not let them learn anything past that).
funny story about Ving Tsun vs Wing Chun- not sure if it is true, but i was told once that perhaps the name change came from the abreviations, VT vs WC respectively. apparently it is common to abbreviate wc for water closet (or bathroom), and some felt that it was an insult to use the same abbreviation for our art...but as many things in our art, that may simply be an anecdote for some other reason. it is true; however, that Ving Tsun mostly refers to those under the Ving Tsun Atheletic Association and therefore might be more a symantic than an assertion, for many under the association call their respective arts Wing Chun. indeed, my Sigung (MOY Yat) did not apparently emphasize so much the name as he did the principles, as neither does my Sifu (Pete Pajil). indeed, finding a good sifu is the most important thing, not the name- i simply use Ving Tsun to help find family members from the Moy Yat "clan (if i may)."
if anyone can tell me what wing chun actually means they get 1000 pionts. bet you can't. and if your wondering about pronunciation ask a chinese master
if the term water closet annoys you don't call the art wc because that name does mean anything does it? besides you cant abreviate chinese characters. and what is your forms we have sil lum tao chum kiu bil gee then the dummy form then the pole then the knifes. 4 years if awful quick lest he be training day and night.
?what ? not clear on your message. but moy yat ving tsun is passed on from yip man and has the same forms of course... moy yat recently died (several years ago)...but i am sure you know that... so i have to admit that i do not know chinese, but many of my brothers do. besides, if they only spoke chinese to us, we would not be able to understand... nor most people who are not chinese... so, i am not clear on what the comment on abbreviating chinese means... i am also not clear as to your statement of four years. i don't believe there is a time limit, but it is said that before, people learned ving tsun in one year- but they practiced all day, every day then...today, we cannot (at least not here in las vegas, nevada- usa)... too much work. my gung fu was opened in 1987-88 and have not reached the weapons yet... but that is my fault, because i went to medical school and became a doctor and did not practice my gung fu then... peace...
i think that the general agreement is that it took the name of madam Yim Ving Tsun who legendarily harbored ng mui... i believe the name means beautiful springtime and has to do with the constant cyclical change (and renewal) that becomes spring- thus expressing the opinion that ving tsun (wing chun- same thing) is a process of renewal- kinda like the idiom, "don't stand on ceremony(kinda)."
close but no virtual cigar. when refering to the person it could mean beautiful spring. but the name actually has a deep meaning for the art.
There are only two original types of Wing chun...per say. Jee shim weng chun kuen and Hung fa yi wing chun...these two arts gave rise to all other styles...including yip man and gu lao. "Misconception: Chi Sim Weng Chun looks very different than modern day Wing Chun that contains the Siu Nim Tau, Chum Kiu and Biu Ji forms, ergo the two are not related. Latest Research: Within the Southern Shaolin Temple, there was a place called the Weng Chun Dim, the Everlasting Spring Great-Room. The style that was taught in this hall, called (Chi Sim) Weng Chun Kuen (Everlasting Spring Fist), represented one of the highest levels of Shaolin Kung Fu. This system is a Chan expression of martial arts meaning that it is complete; it deals with Chan Buddhism, all ranges of combat and, it also has complete Chi Gung training. It's a system of fighting that is based on the concepts of Time/Space, Energy, and Gravity (Heaven, Man &, Earth). A related system that also came out of the Southern Shaolin Temple was directly connected to the revolutionary societies, or the Hung Mun. (Hung Fa Yi) Wing Chun Kuen (Praising Spring Fist). It was developed in the Wing Chun Tong, or Praising Spring Hall, and is also based on Chan and the concepts of Time, Space and, Energy. However, the focus of Wing Chun is on the Economy of Motion, which created different sets of body structures than those found in Weng Chun. However, both systems share the same roots in Chan Buddhism and come from the Southern Shaolin Temple. They are considered sister arts. It is most probable that Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun gave rise to modern day Wing Chun, while Chi Sim Weng Chun most likely gave rise to modern day Hung Ga. In summary, both systems came from the Southern Shaolin Temple, but from different places within the Temple. Both share the same roots and Chan tradition; however Wing Chun focused on the Sap Ming Dim (Formula), radically changing its appearance as compared to Weng Chun." http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/meng/misconceptions.php
OK also here a few remarks.... Ving Tsun is the spelling that was chosen by Yip Man, just cuz he liked the V for victory (also to make the Hong Kong keeping Brits a bit happy to honour queen Victoria) The lines of Yip Man's main pupil already show huge differences in ways of handling force, building up power, meanings of the forms, ways of teaching.... If you compare the lines of Leung Ting and the late Wong Shun Leung (he died in 1997 )you will find that there is a complete opposite interpretation of handling power... whilst we learn to build up body structure, using the wooden dummy,chi sao and all other traiing methods to be able to make way through the opponents arms by removingthem from our way, LT uses to teach his pupils to let themselves be taking in the power softly, deform themsleves and let themselves be pushed into a turning stance to more or less move around the opponent, i.e) not talking about the ways of teaching and times needed to learn and understand
Wt was founded by a psychologist WT was founded by a psychologist so what would you trust ? I have done both, or 3 systems actually - Lo Man Kam, Wong Shun Leung and Leung Ting (WT) I was doing WT back in 1995 and there were aspects of the school training I enjoyed at the time, but later on found to be a hindrance. From all 3 schools I found the Lo Man Kam to teach the better basics and hold more to the traditional teaching methods - Jam Sau spring and wooden dummy on first training day. Also, Lo Man Kam schools teach exercises which mirror what Sun Tzu would mean with "The good fighters of old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then waited for an opportunity of defeating the enemy” - I never learned or saw these exercises in the WT or Wong Shun schools that I visited. Things like Wing Chun arm and leg locks are also taught in Lo Man Kam schools. I am not saying that the other two systems are without merit and that they do not teach the safety aspects, but I was never instructed in the logic and principles in the other schools in the begining, where it is needed most. Example : WT taught me : If the way is free, go forward LMK taught me : If you feel that both of your opponents arms are under control, then go forward The first section of the SLT contains at least 2 arm locks and many safety positions - but in Wt for the first 10 lessons I learned a Pak Sau punch exercise - so where is the logic in that ? Please understand that I speak from 10 years ago when I speak about WT and things may have changed since then of that I am fully aware. Kind regards AikenD
I still find the name thing confusing an kind of funny cause you sort of touch on just a little but would say going to google is best idea or find ppl inperson that are in each system so you can feel the diff. The Chi sao fells different to me. one has a lighter fell some of the time to other more heavy all the time felling. I'll just shut up hard to explane for me. Finally between just the few ppl i have did ChiSau in each system maybe just how the instructor taught each to or each had own approach.
Holy thread necromancy! Nobody answered that silly man's question did they? Many people say 'beautiful', but I don't think that's supported at all... unless it's one of the creation stories as the founder chick's name (which like all creation stories should be taken with a mountain of salt). Some people, and I think some lineages, have it as 'eternal/always', from some poem about 'Always remember the (ahhh, which one was it... I'm gonna go with...) Ming, something something something spring' (works better in Chinese! ) muttered as a greeting by the Ming-supporting rebels from the Shaolin/Red Boat Opera Society with their secret masonic under-the-apron handshake in solidarity against the Knights Templar of the Ching. That was before they found the Arc of the Covenant and lost the secret bullwhip form. The Chinese character most commonly used is 'recite' or 'chant', which is also connected to the Mona Lisa and the Last Supper. The stylistic differences are many, and yet don't really matter at all because most chunners never practice any fighting anyway... and have also been discussed ad infinitum on this board and every other vaguely China-related board in the multiverse. Incidentally, the prize for the most original spelling goes to Sifu Heinrich Pfaff's Yongtjun. You couldn't make it up. And yet somehow, they did.
