Before you get the wrong idea, this thead is not a defence against those who arrogantly dismiss all kata training as useless. I've read these views, they're entitled to them and I disagree with them. I have no desire to justify kata in such a thread, minds have already been made up, it would be pointless unless you enjoy the flaming that follows. The aim of this thread is to give encouragement to and stimulate debate with those who do enjoy their kata or if not the kata itself then the kata based systems. Some valid criticisms have been made against kata, however these are often generalised and do not fit my definition of kata, i.e. kata is not kata without bunkai (applications) and bunkai is not bunkai without application against resisting opponents - In my view if your kata training does not encompass all of this then it is incomplete, to me practising single kata form in isolation is simply not kata. Kata has been described by some already as a valuable tool in the MA's toolbox, I would agree, and further to this I find it an extremely versatile and rewarding development tool, which if used correctly will provide amongst other things valuable self-defence skills. Having said this I accept that there are much faster and easier ways of building self-defence skills, (though I've never claimed otherwise and don't know of any other's who have either) kata training takes a great deal of time and diligence, though kata has other values that the faster/easier ways do not have. Conclusion - if you enjoy your kata/kata based system and want to use it to build self-defence skills, then don't be put off by some of the previous threads that you may have read, even if you don't enjoy the kata itself - persevere, when you start to explore bunkai in depth then frustrating techniques can often turn into effective favorites. If you haven't got the time or the patience then fine, it's not for you so by all means go somewhere else. Message to kata haters: I'm open for debate but if you're going to post here then please don't bother unless you've got something new to say, I've heard your old arguments and they're ..err..old, so unless you can be constructive with your criticism then I'm going to employ my usual tactics and ignore you, I suggest others do the same.
it may seem strange to some, but i actually like kata. the bunkai from the kata help me to think of how the techniques can be used in the street, and mastering the stance in the kata helps me in my basics. yeah, kata might have been based on fights when guns were not invented, but still, how many people are going to just pull out a gun and gun down multiple opponents, especially in the UK. some forms are, in a way, like cross training in some styles of kung-fu ie based on how animals like the tiger, or the crane fight and attack their pray. so IMO, learning the advanced katas of some styles can serve as an alternative to cross training in some styles of Kung-Fu, yet at the same time helping the karateka to think of effective solutions to "in the street" combat situations.
I confess, I too am a kata lover. Haven't always been and went through a long period of total boredom and impatience with kata but am now studying it in a totally different way and love it again. I agree with Fire-horse that kata isn't really kata without bunkai and that is what I had been previously missing. Now that I study kata and its' bunkai I see new meaning and value in it. I don't like dancing and that is what is was without the bunkai. Now, when teaching some of the younger students kata we do it with bunkai and the lightbulbs that go off for them are amazing. They get it and they now have an example of where to use these techniques. You can make a kid do a kata a hundred times but if he doesn't understand that the block he is doing is a block and that it only works in certain situations it is a useless tool in teaching him how to use that block. If the child understands certain blocks will work in certain situations you can see him trying them in sparring situations and it is most gratifying. I see kata in a very similar way that I would see teaching someone how to read music. You teach them the notes, how long you hold them, when to rest, when to play loud so the time where they are confronted with a new piece of music they can usually do a darn good job of sight reading through it. If they never learn the notes and musical notation every new piece of music will be a nightmare because they don't know the basics. Kata teaches the basic moves, bunkai teaches you how to use them and the student himself is the final product, being able to draw on all of this in unrehearsed situations and being able to deal with what is thrown at him because they have developed a basic tool kit to draw from as needed.
Actually, this appears to be a discussion about kata, between those who do them. He "defends" it, but he also implicitly criticizes some. Says everything that really needs to be said.
My reasons for thinking kata are counter productive have nothing to do with anything you mentioned. Traditional Kata teaches poor technique. Hands low, head high, feet flat and planted. This to me is a bunch of bad habits.
I must say that i agree with all of you! And I'm a true "kata girl" and proud of it! I'm glad to see that other people see the true value of kata!! I must add that i think that kata is an essential part of karate as all of it's components. As I have heard so many times from some really smart people you cannot get better in kata without doing kumite and cannot get better in kumite without doing kata. Every aspect of this art is important to develop the rest, because all of it is interconnected. Doing all(kata and kumite and bunkai), I believe makes you an accomplished karateka because you do not neglect any aspect of your karate training. Please keep the discussing going!! Jeanne
Good points Jeanne! I think where some of the disagreement comes in is when we all assume people are training for identical reasons. I don't train for street altercations because I live in a safe city and take all reasonable precautions. I don't train for competition purposes because I am not inclined to that sort of endeavour. I train for personal satisfaction and development and to enjoy myself. I find kata does help me and resent when I am told that it can't. I spar very well considering my age, size and experience and NEVER have the urge to chamber or stand there flat footed. So why would I train chambering and flat footed? Because I like it and it is fun for me! Anyone who tells me I am wrong is assuming they know why I train and they have some sort of secret knowledge on the "true" way to train. Hogwash. Kata does for me what I need it to, it helps me practice basic techniques and understand the uses of them. Anyone who has sparred me will attest to the fact that I don't flap around flat-footed with my hands at my obi and my chin with a target painted on it. Saying that because I train in kata means I can't spar effectively is like telling a classical musician they should never play jazz -that they will get into bad habits and won't be able to play good classical again. Hogwash again! A musician trained in the basics is free to explore all kinds of music. Singing gospel on the weekends at church will not ruin an opera singers career. A smart person can do more than one thing and make the decision on what type of action is appropriate for the situation. So many of the anti-kata group will say it is useless and they aren't wrong either. It is for THEIR purposes, not ours. So kata lovers of the world, hold your heads up high and enjoy your kata.
It depends which viewpoint you see them from. From a traditional Karate view, they're a very helpful tool, possibly essential to being a good karateka. From a self defense/tournament viewpoint, utterly useless.
I don't really enjoy doing kata, but it's a fact that it is usefull. If you can do a kata right, then you can do all the moves in the kata right. Kata was made for a reason, and a good one.
There are people who do kata and are good fighters, there are people who don't do kata and are good fighters Some find it useful while some don't. Both for valid reasons of their own, IMO it's a matter of personal preference. |Cain|
Andrew, clearly I disagree (no surprise there then hey ), by this reasoning do we assume that kata trainers will have engrained habits that make them poor fighters? If so, I disagree again - personnel experience tells me that this is not the case. Kata is one tool in a toolbox, it has its limitations (but then so does every other tool), it doesn't suit everyone, if you've given it a go and it's not for you then fine, I've got absolutely no problem with this. However, for myself and others, perseverence in kata has proven and still continues to be a valuable and rewarding experience. 'Anything' sums this up quite nicely: Sanitarium, what do you mean by 'a traditional karate view'? Traditional karate is a wide sphere within which there are a number of quite different views. I can't speak for other systems but in Goju Ryu the kata training is definately essential to being a good karateka. Also, from my experience, kata is a very versatile and profound tool and is useful for developing self-defence skills, but you need to know how to extract these, bearing in mind that kata is not a tool to be used in isolation, it is an inseperable part of a system. Well said!
I personally love kata. Not just for the development either. I find it extremely relaxing when going through a kata, as it helps me forget everything else, and only focus on one thing. I suppose this is a form of meditation for me. Must be weird for the neighbours though, looking over and seeing me doing my forms, sometimes with my eyes closed... punching thin air.
I'm not Goju but shotokan, however I believe Goju uses Sanchin as it's main Kata to develop breathing and stances with (shock horror- no Bunkai). Now I'm pretty sure an experienced Goju would put this relatively inexperienced Shotokan on his ****. Kata doesn't always need bunkai!
Kareteka who stick by the sphere(s) that use kata, instead of realising they are useless for real matches or self defense. That's not true at all. The only way you can do the moves right, is to practise them on a resisting opponent. Hitting air means you can use those moves to hit air. If you spend your time practising on air and not a real opponent/pads/bags, you'll be absolutely mullered in a real fight.
Not really. I thinl they teach good technique. What I think is that it teaches teaches bad strategy for those who see them literally. Especially when you see what usual shotokan doctrine teaches about kata.
However, people should realise that kata is used to enhance, and cannot be used to train on its own, with no other exercises, such as sparring. Most people use a mixture, rather than just training in one or the other.
Sanitarium, Clearly we have different viewpoints, these differences may have more to do with our own individual definitions of 'kata'. I would ask you to re-read my opening post, you seem to have a preconception about kata that I do not share, if you look at what I have said you will get a better understanding of what I call 'kata'. If kata is done in isolation, then clearly it will be less effective, and I've already stated there are faster and easier ways to learn self-defence skills. However please do not tell me that kata is useless for self-defence, because I know that it is useful - I come from a karate school that has a long history of fielding its members in the security industry, particularly nightclub doors, quite successfully and without 'getting mullered' I might add. On one occasion I have even used a sequence taken directly from a kata in a situation where I was grabbed from behind and spun round into a right hook. Fortunately for me, I reacted instinctively to apply the said sequence, result - punch blocked, me unharmed, & attacker sitting on his backside looking rather shocked in a vacant kind of way. I must say though that it is unusual for a 'kata' sequence to be directly applicable, but on this occasion it fitted. The attacker was taller and bigger built than myself, if it was not for the skills that I had built up to a good extent through kata & related practice then it is quite likely that I would've been 'mullered'. Andy, you are correct Sanchin is a fundamental kata in the Goju system, though it does far more than just develop breathing and stances and it does have bunkai. Firstly I have alot of friends in Shotokan, some of these are excellent fighters, both in tournament and real encounters, and secondly I have no desire to put you or anyone else on their ****. As regards bunkai, if kata without bunkai works for you, great, however from my standpoint I disagree, and I believe that if you practiced the bunkai it would make a significant improvement. Why not try it & let me know.
Well, you coould always just make up some kata, just for fun. One of the most helpfull things about kata is it shows you how to make a siries of attacks. Shows you how to put them together and smoothy transfer to your next move.
I found out that students who practiced kata learned techniques faster, adapted their techniques more quickly, improved their balance and to a degree, their strength. Coupled with the proper drills, sparring and strength training, these students made for formidable tournament fighters.
