Shaolin Institute?

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by BlackLotus, Apr 18, 2014.

  1. BlackLotus

    BlackLotus New Member

    Has anyone ever heard of this place or know anything about Shi Deru(Shawn Liu)? Is it a legit school or another shaolin fraud? I havent had a chance to go to the school yet but it's one of the few that have caught my eye.
    http://www.shaolin-world.net/
     
  2. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    Looks a bit like a sham to me. I am no authority just sharing my opinion.
     
  3. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Well, with all due respect, how about sharing WHY you have that opinion? What specifically makes you say it is a sham? What don't you like about it?

    Sifu there says he taught and coached Cung Le and Pat Berry amongst others. If so, that is a pretty good credential in my book. He also claims to be a successful San Shou competitor. These things should be easy enough to verify as true (or not) with some Internet searching.

    I need to browse the site more before I have an opinion myself.

    But if he really coached and competed the way he claims, he isn't a sham.
     
  4. 19thlohan

    19thlohan Beast and the Broadsword

    Shawn Liu coached the US san shou team several times.
     
  5. Wooden Hare

    Wooden Hare Banned Banned

    If it says "Shaolin" don't just believe it.

    If it says "Shaolin", don't just dismiss it.
     
  6. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    Its a chain school with summer specials. Right away that makes me think mcdojo/ sham. I am sure I am just stating my opinion.
     
  7. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Is that a bad thing?

    A chain of schools could be the result of having a lot of highly skilled black belts.

    The summer specials are just their version on the MAP Meet, a chance for people from all the schools to meet and compare.
     
  8. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    As i said I am no expert and ir is my opinion. I am sure there are fine chain schools. I tend to think of all chains be it walmart or mcdonalds or a martial arts school as a bad thing. There is wiggle room if it is idependtly owned and operated. But even then they have to meet a.certian not always good standard.
     
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Gracie Barra is a chain too
     
  10. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    Yes it is. That brings me to this. My sons bjj instructor is now part if the gracie empire. Gis doubled in price. New members must pay higher tuition. The instruction did not improve because of it. 2 people joined only because of the familiar name.

    I do not hold any gracie school in high regard just because it is a gracie school. As good as the gracie name is it is starting to be more of brand imho. In the beginning even Sam Walton of walmart believed in quality.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2014
  11. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Welll, at least the OP (and others) can decide if the reason you dislike the school has any merit- because they know what your issue is.

    I dismiss this opinion myself.

    Not all single schools are good. Not all schools with more than one location are bad.

    I think it is bad to make such a judgement for reasons like this. Instead I think it is much better to look at the quality of the martial arts taught. The credentials of the teachers, whether or not they have sparring, whether they teach the martial concepts behind their moves, whether they have black belts based on merit vs money.................you get the idea.
     
  12. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    The op asked what we thought. I gave my opinion. I do look at rhe quality, creds etc. Of the school. I do not drink the koolaid though. I admit it I feel most chains be it fast food, or MA are in it only for the money, including the gracies. If I am wrong about the ops school I am sure I will hear about it. If you are offended because I distrust a school that you train in perhaps you could enlighten me thru some facts.
     
  13. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    I am not offended. I merely disagree with you and am discussing it.

    I don't train in the school mentioned here.

    The original issue was it is not helpful to the OP to just say something as vague as you did in your original post without details.

    And it seemed off to me calling it a sham. Sham, by definition is a fraud or a hoax. The Sifu seems quite credible with the credentials he has in competing and coaching. If you are going to call someone the equivalent of a fraud, you should be able to back it up.

    Your more detailed description isn't really fitting your original issue of a sham. But just that you have issues with most all schools that have multiple locations.

    Which is where a discussion of the merits of that criteria can be useful for the OP. I think it is a poor criteria and stated why. Others pointed out highly reputable "chain" schools. OP can decide with this more detailed discussion whether ruling something out solely because of it being a "chain" after reading what you, I, and others say on that.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2014
  14. BlackLotus

    BlackLotus New Member

    Thanks guys. When I get some off days from work i plan on going check his school out. The main location is in Atlanta but their is a location in New Orleans(where I live at) so hopefully they aren't bad. I'm torn for the reasons listed. I like the fact that sparring is offered but I was thrown off by the claims of the Grandmaster "being from shaolin temple." Everything i have found online regarding him seems to lead to being authentic though. All I need to do now is check the school out.
     
  15. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    I Believe the OP will do his or her research on this and decide for their self. I encourage them to do so and not to base their decision on MAP opinions alone. I have a hard time thinking of any "chain" that did not loose their way. Sure most start out with the right intentions, but ultimately the love of money wins. It happens to even the most morale of people. There are of course exceptions
     
  16. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    The reasons you train are your own. I chose not to even go down the grand master claim road. others have better knowledge on this than I. If they try to convince you to sign a contract in the first hour beware. This should be a no pressure choice for you. I sincerely hope I am wrong in my opinion of this school, and that you have many good years of training with them if you choose.
     
  17. taiji48

    taiji48 Valued Member

    I checked a few Chinese websites and here are the photos showing Master Shi Deru with his teacher and other Shaolin monks. So it appears to be legit, and you are likely to learn authentic Shaolin Kung Fu.

    http://blog.voc.com.cn/blog_showone_type_blog_id_409400_p_1.html

    HOWEVER, I do have issues with this statement about Tai Chi on their website:

    Tai Chi is a combination of Kung Fu & Qi Gong based on ancient Shaolin Chan (Zen), Kung Fu, and medical exercise therapy practices in China.

    Almost everyone knows Tai Chi has a Taoism background, not a Buddhsim one. It would be a stretch to claim that Tai Chi originates from Shaolin!

    Master Shi Deru does not hold any formal Tai Chi lineage, so I wouldn't enroll in that school for Tai Chi. They probably teach some Tai Chi forms, as Tai Chi is in great demand, and they conveniently labeled Tai Chi as a Buddhist product!

    There are some commercial motivations there, but the Shaolin part seems to be legit.
     
  18. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Not really a “stretch“ - Taijiquan developed from a form of longquan, whichever ‘origin story‘ you choose to believe.
    Zhang Sanfeng was, in his younger days, a Shaolin disciple and learned Shaolin longquan which he later modified into a new art after studying Daoist theory.

    I cant remember which Chen was the first, but he was a retired military officer who would have been exposed to various forms of boxing in his career. Chen style also contains Canon Fist, which is a style of longquan.

    Id say there are definite links...
     
  19. Wooden Hare

    Wooden Hare Banned Banned

    Shaolin Chan was and still is a mixing pot of Daoist and Buddhist practices, including martial ones as well as philosophy etc.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tao_of_Zen

    [ame="http://www.amazon.com/The-Tao-Zen-Ray-Grigg/dp/0785811257"]The Tao of Zen: Ray Grigg: 9780785811251: Amazon.com: Books[/ame]
     
  20. taiji48

    taiji48 Valued Member

    Well, i think we are going down a slippery slope here that, eventually, everything including Taoism will be deemed a derivative of Shaolin, Zen, Chan, or Buddhism, or Yoga.

    It might well be true, but these styles are so different right now that I am not buying the claim that Tai Chi is part of the Shaolin heritage.

    I guess at least 51% of average people would agree with me :D

    And I looked at this page again and saw some bait-and-switch here:

    http://www.shaolin-world.net/classes/taichi

    It starts by talking about Tai Chi and Qigong, and then introduces its own system, called ..... TaiGong :thinking:

    So it seems the logic here is: Tai Chi + Qi Gong = Tai Gong.

    What is this Tai Gong thing?

    Then the last paragraph says "Our Tai Chi class is held in a peaceful environment and incorporates Shaolin Qi Gong - breathing exercises - as a warm up and to help everyone to relax."

    So this Tai Gong could be a "fusion" style kung fu, like Asian fusion cuisines in America. :D

    I am not saying Shaolin Qi Gong is inferior. But they shouldn't try to sell Shaolin Qi Gong under the wrap of Tai Chi. Just call a spade a spade. Shaolin Qi Gong is very venerable in itself.

    I guess I am opening a can of worm here:D
     

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