Tai Chi

Hello all,

I have been studying Tai Chi (Prof. Cheng Man-Ch'ing version) for the past 1.5 years and right now on the round of corrections. Pushing hands will be next.

My original intentions was to learn a martial art for self-defense. I tried Tai Chi and liked it but I don't think it is taking me any closer to my goal or any time close to it within the next several years. I talked to my Sifu and he said to stick to it because it is the ultimate fighting style. It might as well be but still... I am thinking of maybe supplementing it with some other style in the mean time which can actually help me to defend myself if the need arises.

So far, I have tried BJJ for a month but the training method is so different from Tai Chi that it feels like I didn't get anything from the previous 1.5 years.

I am looking for advice which martial art can build on top of the Tai Chi training and can be applicable for self-defense. Bonus would be if you know any MA schools in Brooklyn for that style.

 

Sounds to me like you have a rubbish tai chi teacher

EDIT: Welcome to MAP, by the way

 

Sorry, I'll expand on my previous post...

The issue I see is that you have practiced Tai Chi for 18 months, and have not yet started push-hands; I would assume you have also not started other resistant partner work?
As your interest is in the martial function of Tai Chi, this lack of combative training is a serious flaw in your teacher's methodology.

A good martial Tai Chi teacher should teach everything from the POV of martial technique.
If your class is more concerned with perfecting your form, rather than getting at the essence of what is happening, then you're not in the right place.

 

The fact that BJJ made you feel like you have gained no benefit from a year and a half of Tai Chi training should not be a reason to discard BJJ. I am sure that Tai Chi can be a very good martial art for self defense, but only if your teacher is one of the very few who are capable of teaching it as such. Given your description of your training, I would suggest moving schools. Unless you have access to an alternative Tai Chi school that trains with a good amount of contact, I would probably suggest changing arts as well.

 

I'd also like to point out:

Tai Chi form is not Tai Chi.
It is a mirror that reflects the qualities that are developed and refined by the jibengong, the neigong, the tui shou and san shou.

If your form is perfect, but you cannot embody the qualities of practice outside of your form, then your practice is empty.

 

I just noticed this:

You live in Brooklyn, why aren't you training at Gleason's?

Here is the wiki article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleason's_Gym

Here is the link:
http://www.gleasonsgym.net/home.html

Go there!

 

I dunno about Brooklyn, but Josh Waitzkin was taught by William CC Chen in NY. Josh describes his push hands training with Mr Chen and it sounded really full on. If you look at the class schedule as well they factor in PH and San shou. I would try and check this place out if you can. Also read Josh's book "The art of learning". Great book with a lot about his Tai Chi training and competitions (amongst other things).

http://www.williamccchen.com/nysched.htm

 

You should look at any MA style as "what tools does this style give me?"

The Taiji

- vital punch is jab.
- lady works on shuttle is cross.
- twin peaks to the ear is hook.
- snake extend tongue is uppercut.
- turn around hammer is hammer fist.
- separate leg is front kick.
- swing leg as lotus is crescent kick (or foot sweep).
- cross legs is reverse side kick.
- ...

Taiji already gives you all the striking tools that you will ever need from any MA style.

 

Thank you for all your replies and for the welcome. I've been browsing this forum for about a year before I registered.

The thing is, he explains the martial application of each stance in the form. Lately he started talking about imagining the resistance on your arms, like a small rubber band is pulling them back when you do the form. But all of this remains just a theoretical knowledge because I haven't started doing pushing hands or any drills. Thus the reason for my post.

I did talk to him about doing pushing hands but he says it will be after the first round of corrections. Should I talk to him again? I don't want to look too impatient and I don't know how long it normally takes as it is my first martial art so I have nothing to compare to.

Boxing never looked too appealing to me even though it is highly effective. On the other hand, after googling, Choy Li Fut looks very interesting. I am also looking into Vietnamese Wing Chun.

 

Honestly Tai Chi is a hard martial art to find a good teacher in. It is hard to know if you are doing it correctly unless you have someone offering some form of resistance.

Have you looked at Baguazhang or XingYiQuan? Plenty of good teachers in NYC for those arts too. And generally they teach you martial application straight away in my brief experiance.

 

If you're not drilling/sparring in a realistic manner, how can you expect realistic results?

 

Form will not get you anywhere in terms of fighting or self defence. It will just give you and edge in terms of certain attributes tai chi seeks to develop. In the same way a well conditioned athlete will be ahead of one who isn't when it comes to a boxing match ( for example)

You should check William CC Chen if you are in New York and want to stick to CMC style.A number of his students have competed in various formats
His son is a fighter (Max Chen) and his father has some boxing experience having competed back in Taiwan. They teach the full package re. tai chi It's obvious your teacher doesn't really know how to teach you practical fighting skills, drills and all the rest.

You would still be out of your element with BJJ because it's a different ball game on the ground, but I have heard many people say that tai chi helped them in their BJJ progress as they share some principles (as do many martial styles).

Do yourself a favour and Go to William Chens school in NY, if it's martial arts you are after from Tai chi.

 

Thank you. William CC Chen school looks good but unfortunately, I need a school in Brooklyn due time restraints. I did some searching yesterday and found this Choy Lee Fut school (http://www.choyleefutusa.com/welcome.html) not too far from me. I would really appreciate if somebody could take a look at his website and maybe give a first impression of the school and instructor.

 

Hey "cuz".Welcome to MAP. I have some experience in CMC's TC.

Sooo.... 2 years I guess before you start even push hands?Two years? At that rate I wonder how many years before you get to hit and be hit?

Maybe you should ask your teacher what the basic framework (timewise) is for development and learning new things.Or just ask him how long it will theoretically be before you can play "let's smack each other around" with practitioners of other MA systems and give a good accounting of yourself-(which doesn't mean you have to "win" every time).

If it's several years.... then for what you want,functional skills in a shorter period of time,you'll have to leave.

Yep!

Well,it's good to have at least a theoretical understanding of possible applications.In and of itself that doesn't mean much.I know of plenty of folks who can explain that stuff.Many of them are NOT the people I would choose for companions if I had to "take care o' some business" down at the docks.

How long after beginning push hands is it before you begin learn how to use the applications he explains,and how long before you get to actually mix it up free sparring?Those are reasonable questions to ask and the answers should have a logical reasoning behind them.Any instructor of any system should be able to answer these types of questions without hestation.

Oh,you really have to spend many,many,many hours in push hands to develop the TC specific skills derived from that practice.Which is why to some of us it makes sense to learn a lot of other actual "fightin" stuff at the same time.Like basic footwork,striking,defense,etc.And getting hit.

Boxing's great.Finding good Wing Chun can be as difficult as good T'ai Chi.

Wm. competed in the Taiwan (full contact) MA tourneys.Not in boxing.Now I read someone saying he competed in Olympic boxing in Taiwan.Where does this stuff come from?(Not directed at you,man).

Look up on William's site and see if he any students teaching in Brooklyn who are pugilistic.Also look up the late C.K.Chu and see if he has anyone teaching in Brooklyn.

Or just find a good boxing gym.Or do the BJJ.

So I'm curious.Did your teacher or his teacher study with Cheng? Could you give me just the initials of the person who studied w/Cheng? Just curious because the 2 years type thing brings one of Cheng's US students to mind.Just initials,please

 

Thanks for the post. He studied with Prof. Cheng and his initials are WP.

 

I'm curious Omnitek, what was it about the BJJ that you didn't like? Pretty much any school that teaching grappling (wrestling, BJJ, Judo, Sambo, Sumo) is going to train the same way. Different focus and techniques. To me if you aren't rolling or it's equivalent within a month or two, you probably want to look elsewhere.

I coach folkstyle wrestling for Kindergarden through 2nd grade kids and we start free wrestling by week 3. First 2 weeks are drills, conditioning and getting them used to the environment.

Just my 2 cents.

 

I didn't mean it to sound like I don't like BJJ. It was just that it felt like it has a completely different approach then Tai Chi and I don't want to feel like I wasted 1.5 years. Instead, I would like to find a martial art where I can build on. Aaradia suggested Choy Li Fut and after some research, it looks like it might be a good fit for me right now. I am going to a trial class on Tuesday and then we will see.

If it will not work for whatever reason, I will most likely go and pick up Sambo. I trained in Sambo for a couple of years when I was a kid and I liked it. Plus my grandfather has KMS in Sambo (one step below Master of Sport). I also plan to send my son to judo school in a couple of years once he gets a bit older.

 

"Completely different approach" is a good thing in your case, because in most schools Tai Chi is not pressure tested (at all). But BJJ is a GREAT outlet for pressure testing and applying all sorts of traditional kung fu concepts: foot/stancework, bridging applications, balance, framing etc, even if you remove all the striking elements associated with the boxing techniques in the style. AS usual, good kung fu is often dependent on the little details (e.g. endurance, footwork, body awareness).

For a "good" Tai Chi practitioner for instance, I would expect to see at least very strong legs and core even if they don't conduct san shou and can't punch.. So, this Tai Chi person should at least expect to see those strong elements assist their BJJ game, the legs should factor in. Otherwise, something is wrong.

That doesn't mean your Tai Chi legs should give you magical BJJ powers, but with 1.5 years you should feel some Tai Chi elements "kick" in during BJJ. If not you've either been training wrong, or not enough. 1.5 years is plenty of time to learn techniques, but not nearly long enough to actually acquire real "gung" (skill) in any of them.

 

Oh,I think I know who that is. If so,he also studied w/someone else-a straight ahead martial teacher.If I remember correctly he was originally one of Stanley's students and then studied directly under Cheng.Studied under the other guy I mentioned some years after Cheng's death.

But that's moot. I guess what really matters is if he has produced people who can function outside their own practice settings.Again,this means being able to give a good accounting vs. practitioners from other systems. And I don't mean in competition push hands,I mean freespar/fighting.

The long time before learning push hands is a quasi traditional thing.Meaning some people do that,others don't make people wait so long.It's not an actual "traditional" thing per say.I think he may just be following the way he was taught.There are reasons for presenting the material this way so I can't say it's incorrect.Not my cup o' tea,tho'.

If this is who I think it is,you can probably develop some good TC skills under his tutelage.Sorry,I don't know enough about him to know if he produces fighters.

If he does,it may just be that you need to exercise "patience"?

If it's worth it to you.