Forms or No Forms?

Hello everyone I,m new here. For most of my life in the kung fu /martial art world every now and then I would come across discussions on the benefits of forms or to not have forms and only teach techniques. I had to personally deal with this because I am a Kung Fu Founder so I thought I would give a small bit of info from my perspective . If you want to teach a style you could choose to just teach techniques but over time they would become fragmented and maybe even lost all together. if you truly want your chosen
style to last through the test of time and stay intact as possible
you must have forms . a form is like a book as long as it,s intact you can
pass on the information. some people become over obsessed with forms others discard them all together ultimately ,if you teach a style you must have them or the style will vanish with time. I,m speaking overall to teach forms or not to have forms from a teachers perspective the other questions as the other benefits of proper form training and practice is another aspect to be discussed

 

Evolution and change are inevitable - that's a good thing. Forms filled in te gaps before video, books and the Internet

For me they are next to useless and give me nothing I do not get better elsewhere; for others they love and breath it. I don't think you can be dogmatic either way except for what you prefer.

They are useful to some and perhaps that is enough - but they are far from essential

 

Goodmorning, This is my first post and something that I hope that I can offer to everyone.

@ Hannibal- To say that "They are useful to some and perhaps that is enough - but they are far from essential " I dont think is 100% correct. I would say more that they are useful to some people, but not to everyone.
My point is that forms (katas) do have a place in the martial arts. And yes, before the web and the ability to easily get books and DVDs out to the mass, passing on forms to one person to the next was the best way to show your style to others. But in today's world, you can do that so much easier and better with computers.
When students ask me about "why do I have to learn kata?" I tell them its a workout in a box. If you dont know what to do to practice or fall short on your dedicated training time, do a few forms. They are not for everyone, but some people (like newer students) do need to them to help develop the core principles that are taught in the martial arts. If you have a teacher that can teach them without forms or if you can develop them on your own, then you are one that does not need them.

 

wrestlers and boxers dont need solo forms. but drills and two man stuff might be useful

 

@ Zaad
I didnt think about boxers and wrestlers. Never being in either of them, I would ask if their "drills" can be called choreographed patterns of movements, the very definition
of kata?

 

In the koryu two man kata sense, kinda. But not in the kungfu/karate solo sense.

 

I agree if you are referring to a solo form (a rigid set of movements, beating up the air infront of you), but what about a two man drill such as the (very first, basic) cycle of hubad from FMA, or a grappling lock flow all from one ground position? I think these could be seen as a two man kata.
1. They help the student remember all the positions/techniques, and
2. They provide a framework (several points of reference) from which to develop variations and reactions with increasing resistance in drilling.

Personally, if you treat 1) as the be all and end all of the drill/two man kata, then it has limited value, but if the drill allows freedom for variation and attribute development then there is a lot more value (IMO of course!)

 

i have yet to experience anything close to formalisation of kata/forms in modern grappling styles.

except maybe jason scully's solo drills

 

In Taekwondo, we have lots of forms/patterns. I like them for several reasons:
1. We have a lot of individual techniques and the patterns can be used to have students practice the correct way of doing them. They also tie footwork into the movements
2. Provides a good means for home study of the movements in a safe way.
3. They provide a good reference for each level of what techniques/footwork we are working on.
4. They tend to be a lower impact method for kids to practice thier material and some adults really enjoy the breathing/physical exercise they get from them.

In Combat Hapkido, we don't have forms/patterns. We do a lot of two-person drills and we focus on a smaller catalog of techniques and how to apply them in a wide variety of situations. I think students learn the basics and applications just as well as the TKD students who are using patterns do.

For me personally, I can live without forms. But, if I had to do forms in a school where I liked the art and liked the instructors and felt the training was worthwhile, I'd do forms (and I do).

 

When I hear "form" or "pattern" then it has very specific connotations - and he OP meant the solo patterns so my comments were specifically about them.

I agree that with sumbrada, hubud etc then you are technically doing a set form - but it has in built flexibility for personalizing and the drill is designed to organize rather than be definitive. Certainly outside of the first few passes they never look exactly the same week to week as the students grow.

I used to be a lot more rabid against patterns, but mellowed as years went by. Now i consider they are like shadow boxing without the imagination

 

Without wishing to sound pedantic isn't that exactly what I said?

I think they are almost entirely dependent on the art - as identified for boxing, wrestling and Muay Thai they are not really applicable. Well unless you include shadow boxing, but that is not a set form so does not really fit

Solo work to me is on the whole supplementary - you simply cannot learn a system of combat without interaction with at least one other person.

 

I don't know that I'd call boxing and wrestling drills "kata" as arts with kata/forms/pomse have drills that are not considered kata.

As far as boxing goes, I consider shadow boxing to be it's form of kata. Grappling is something I have very limited experience in, but from what I have seen there is nothing that even remotely resembles kata. I have, however, heard that there are a few grappling style with actual forms. I wish I knew more about this.

Back to the topic at hand; I think kata is very important, just like any other tool used to learn and perfect the art you choose to study. Is it absolutely necessary? Not in my opinion, but that doesn't mean it can't be an effective learning tool.

 

There is a fundamental difference between forms and shadow boxing: repeatability.

With forms, you keep doing the same sequence of movements over and over to perfect the sequence, a very different deal to shadow boxing.

Plus, there is the observation aspect; a teacher can look at a student's form and say "you got it wrong", whereas who's to say what is right or wrong when looking at someone shadow box?

I do totally agree with Hannibal's "imagination" assessment though. Not that people who practice set solo forms don't have an imagination, but it is a much more mentally fatiguing practice to fully visualize your shadow boxing.

 

Are you saying one can not repeat a set of moves while shadow boxing? I hope not, I do it all the time... er did it all the time when I wasn't injured and will continue to do so in a couple of months when I'm healed up.

See above.

A teacher absolutely can watch his/her student shadow box and discern whether their technique is good or sloppy (or nonexistent).

Is that necessarily a bad thing? I would think it would make you mentally stronger.

 

Agreed, I think it's a mistake to get people shadow boxing if they are not confident in their technique, too much danger of them flailing around like they ate too many disco biscuits (not that I think you were advocating this).

Just like sparring, I think it has the capacity to be detrimental if practiced too early.

I feel shadow boxing should not be practiced until you have the experience to properly visualize, with a certain sense of authority, what you are doing.

 

@itwasn'tme: if you are repeating a sequence from your shadow boxing, you just created yourself a form.

I wasn't trying to argue the superiority of forms over shadow boxing, the points you made were deliberately implicit in my post.

For the record, I think that repeating a form over a period of months or years is detrimental to a student's ability to creatively apply their technique.

 

I think we may actually agree on the philosophy here so to avoid an argument over semantics I will say only this; ok.

I know, I just think you are trying to make this divide between forms and shadow boxing that I do not feel is there or needs to be there.

This should not be the case as long as they "pressure testing" their techniques on a regular basis. Your statement reads, to me, like this: Practising the basics over a period of months or years is detrimental to a student's ability to creatively apply their technique.

 

No, I'm saying always training "x follows y follows z" causes neuro-muscular problems if you're in a situation that calls for something different, which will invariably be the case.