Looking for training for me and my kids.

WARNING: This is going to be a long post. I think some of this is actually kind of for me to get some perspective on what path I want to take.

I was trying to figure out how best to tell this story. Whether I should talk about my kids situation or mine first. I figure I will try to do so in chronological order seeing as how I was here first.

So back when I was a kid I would watch the "Kung Fu" TV series a lot with my mom. That was my first exposure to any of this stuff. I watched that show a lot as a young child and it seriously impacted a lot of my beliefs. It also made me want to learn martial arts. My mother was awesome. She worked really hard all her life usually multiple jobs to still be very poor. She really wanted me to be able to go but every time it looked like it was time, that things had finally come together and she could afford it some unforeseen and unavoidable financial crisis would come out of nowhere. A broken down car, a lost job, etc.

As a further symptom of this, we generally lived in very poor and very rough neighborhoods. And it did not take long for my life to take a turn for the violent. I lived in a city where there was a lot of racially motivated violence. I was often targeted for being the only white kid in the area. You would get randomly jumped by people you had never met and often beaten very badly. They didn't want your money. They didn't want your girl. They wanted to hurt someone and you happened to be there. (And be white) Fortunately I had a few mentors who kind of taught me how to deal with the streets. (And even more fortunate they were people of color themselves which helped cement that I would NEVER be racist no matter what racially motivated violence came my way.)

All throughout my childhood my passion for the martial arts never ended. Yeah I watched movies like other kids and all that but there was definetly something more that I wanted. I was not content with the flashy stuff I wanted to know the truth. One talent I always had was reading, vocabulary and comprehension. So I read. I read and I read and I read. I was never under any delusions that I could become a real martial artist from reading but I really sank my teeth into the philosophy. My brother and I would practice techniues on each other. And would spar a lot. One of the best books I read that was good at teaching basic techniue was about Judo. Though I am sure realistically I never learned any of the throws perfectly without an instructor I did however took what I had learned and practiced and used it to defend myself on a couple of different occasions. I read books on Karate, Kung Fu, etc. I always wanted to go to real classes and sometimes I would a little here or there but money just kept holding me back. If I believed in curses that is what I would of said it was. It was almost uncanny how I would get so close only to be knocked back further.

I watched a cheezy old 80's film called "No Retreat, No Surrender" which basically has the ghost of Bruce Lee coming back to train a kid. Ironically I had seen no Bruce Lee films at this point if you can believe it. But I was intrigued a lot by the philosophy in the film and started reading Bruce Lee's books. I read and re-read "Tao of Jeet Kune Do" until I had worn the cover off. I read all of the "Bruce Lee's Fighting Methods" and practiced some of that stuff with my brother. Some of the drills we did still cause reactions in me to this day. (I discovered this at a recent BJJ class where we were supposed to break grips and this circular motions that are closer to trapping/chi sao kind of stuff would instinctively happen. Fortunetly they did not prevent me from doing the BJJ techniues.) Again, disclaimer, I by no means consider myself competent enough to call myself an expert or even a novice in trapping. But I was a poor kid and books were all I had.

Like everyone else I went through my "Ninja" phase as well but my reading also kind of made me look at this very differently. When most of my young friends were "ooohing" about Van Damne playing "Frank Dux the Ninja" in the movie "Bloodsport" I remember thinking "Uhh... wait a minute. That stuff is not Ninjitsu...hell only the first fight he had in this tourney looked anything like a Ninja would do..."

Like most kids I screwed around a lot. Wrestled and roughhoused. My friends and I would spar and our basic rules were no face contact. No groin. We would kick each other's legs, body, etc and punch with reasonable contact. I would do this for hours and just never got sick of it. I never felt like I was a real martial artist but I did develop some skills that helped me in some of the scraps I got into. Well, eventually.

What I mean by eventually is during a brief period of my middle school life I was religious and a pacifist. It did not take long for kids to figure this out so it made me a really great target for bullies. Kids half my size could push me around and know that nothing was going to happen to them. One such kid's name was Jeri Hayes. He showed up one day at the lunch table me and my friends would sit at and for whatever reason singled me out. It was relentless and would never end. I didn't even know the kid. (Ironically, though there was a lot of racial violence, you would get even more trouble from white kids who seemed to want to prove that they also hated white people so they could be "cool". My friends of color used to laugh at people like this but they were determined.)

I really started to hate school. My friends would always apologize for not sticking up for me but they would tell me they were afraid he would start in on them next. Eventually I converted out of my previous religion and came to an epiphany that I was not a pacifist anymore. I still felt that people should only fight in self defense. But I also realized that the psychological torture this dufus was putting me through was bad for me. And even Mr. Miyagi would let Daniel fight for his respect from time to time.

So I walked up to Jeri and confronted him in the lunch room. I wanted there to be no illusions about what took place. I challenged him to fight with me and he clearly was not ready for the sudden lack of pacifism. He refused to get out of his chair. After asking him politely to get up three times I finally decided to hit him with a hard right that knocked him right out of his chair, backwards. As he started to get up I put my knee to the back of his head which put him on all fours. I stepped back into what I understood to be my best "cat stance" and then front kicked him in the face, which caused him to fall onto his back. I then jumped on top of him into what I now know to be a "mount" and started raining my first on his face. The entire lunch crowd was stunned. I had been going to school there for years and taking endless crap because there was no reason to fear the big christian kid who believed in turning the other cheek. (No offense to Christians reading this.)

Though that was not my last fight it was my first fight of any significance. I had beaten Jeri so soundly he did not have a chance to fight back. As a result I was the only one who got suspended. My mother did not punish me as she had seen that kid push me around many times.

I remember I think sitting in the bath tub sometime after that and making a vow that my kids were not going to have to endure any of that. That I wanted them to be able to defend themselves from the start.

So, fast forward a bit as I get older. I join a martial arts class called "The quest center" and take "To Shin Do" which was apparently Stephen Hayes's form of Nin-jitsu. I liked the teachers and I liked some of the other students. But there was something I could not put my finger on that gave me problems with the class.

I had started watching "The Ultimate Fighting Championship" just like everyone else did and yeah I learned about the value of ground fighting just like everyone else. There was actually an excellent ground fighting instructor at the quest center so that was not the problem. It was a fight I watched where this total thug named "Tank Abbot" beat the living excrement out of people who were supposedly 4th and 5th degree black belts in various arts. He had no form, no style whatsoever. Even as the novice I was I could see all the various ways he wasted energy and did not punch efficiently. But man, did he ever win some of those fights. He literally destroyed some people. And I realized why. He had the NERVE to actually HIT people. A lot of the people in my class who outranked me, I knew that they would probably know in their minds what technique to use if I got up and started punching them in the face. But would they be able to? The quest center had an atmosphere that made me feel like I was at a church event (meaning upbeat super duper friendly to the point of being unbelieveable) and I could not imagine violence ever happening there. And I think that was my problem.

I stuck with To Shin Do for about six months. But eventually money ruined that too. Though in retrospect I realize I was probably better off. Eventually I met a Shidoshi of Ninjitsu who happened to also be a LARPer in a LARP I was playing. He invited me to one of his classes and we had some great talks about Ninjitsu. And more specifically, about Stephen Hayes. He said that in Grandmaster Maasaki's circle of students Stephen was called the "golden dragon" and he believed it was this big compliment but that apparently it was because of his great skills at marketing and making money with Ninjitsu. I saw some of his students and they all seemed to be very confident, and competent. The atmosphere of the dojo was completely different. He showed me his certs and showed me what to look for. We enjoyed talking so he invited me over to watch some videos of Tai Kai's that he had attended. (For those who don't know, this is kind of a convention of the various high ranking students of Grandmaster Maasaki.)

I considered becoming one of his students but again, life happened and it became impractical as I had to move suddenly due to financial crap.

So some years later I got back heavily into reading about Jeet Kune Do oriented material and decided to see if there was a properly certified instructor in my area. I called up the Inosanto academy and luckily they had a listing of instructors. I had some great conversations with some of them that were in Michigan, but they were always too far. One I remember very fondly was Scott Han. We hit it off really well and exchanged a lot of stories about Bruce Lee and martial arts in general. I would of loved to of trained with Scott but he was way too far away. I ended up visiting Sifu Hatch's class and I loved it but again, too far away.

So, fast forwarding to the future a bit I get married. Have a couple of kids. Get divorced, have huge financial troubles. Develop chronic heel spurs. A condition that basically means the bones in my heels are pointed like the talons of a hawk. It becomes very painful to walk for any length of time so this combined with stress causes me to put on far too much weight. My knees are shot. I still stay active through LARP because I can sit down whenever my feet are killing me. Recently I discovered some great insoles for my shoes that extend my time on my feet by hours before I start to feel pain. I look in the mirror one day and realize that the image I see does not match my self image. Basically I was not aware of just how bad I had let myself go.

Furthermore, I got involved in activism in the Occupy movement and often found myself in situations where I had to break up fights. (Note, the occupy movement is a completely non-violent movement but when you are camping in the worst neighborhoods in the country people who are not part of that movement will often end up in your camp, often stoned, drunk, dangerous, etc.) Fortunately I have some really good skills in conflict resolution and de-escalation but I was always worried I was going to end up dealing with someone who was not going to be reasoned with. Because of my violent childhood I am very confident that I can hurt people. What I am not confident in is my ability to incapacitate people without hurting them.

This caused me to re-think coming back to really wanting martial arts again.

But now we get to the part that absolutely awakened my interest.

I have two children. A 7 year old daughter and a 5 year old son. The kids school is actually really good about stopping bullying. But the bus stop is another matter. The day my 7 year old came home with an open cut on her head from a bully I remembered that day sitting in the bath tub. Swearing to myself that my childhood was not going to be their childhood. I called the police but they explained to me that because it was kids it was extremely unlikely that the prosecutor would do anything. One thing they WERE very clear on is that I could not do anything about it myself. And that if I were to intervene I could face prosecution. (I of course had no interest in dealing directly with my daughter's 7-10 year old attackers. But I did start walking my kids to the bus stop every morning.)

I realized though that this problem was not going to end. And was likely going to get worse. My daughter has the misfortune of being smarter and prettier then a lot of the kids around her which causes all sorts of trouble for her. She does not play the social "popularity" game and this makes her a target as it did me at her age. My son even at 5 of course refuses not to get involved when someone is picking on his sister. So they would both come home with evidence of one small scrap or another.

So I resolved that I wanted my kids to start training. Now. As in right away.

My money situation was/is only slightly better then my mothers was. But that was only part of the problem. I was trying to find a good school for them. I was sad to see that nobody was teaching kids ground fighting. And there were no "children's MMA" classes that were close enough.

So I decided that particularly at their young age if I had to pick striking or grappling that they were better off starting with grappling. I was lucky enough to find a BJJ school with a kids program. After watching a lot of videos of young kids competing in BJJ I was really hoping to see how they would grow. When I brought up competition to the instructor however he did not seem to keen on it suggesting that kids needed a childhood. I am still ironing out how I feel about that but I am confident that they will at least be put in situations where their skills are being resisted by the people they are trying to get at.

I also tried the BJJ introductory class and I enjoyed it. They offer a 30 day no money down free trial and I am doing that now. But I am finding as a meaty overweight guy that some of the technique does not work for me. One of the instructors told me that the founder of the system had modified the Jiu Jitsu that he had been taught for being small. (This was not brought up in the context of me having trouble.) But I find myself having trouble with some of the drills just due to the sheer size of my thighs, calves, and arms. My stamina is fine. (I try to keep up my cardio with a lot of cycling as it is the only thing I can do with my feet. So ironically I actually don't tire easy.)

My instructor was also honest about some of the limitations of BJJ in self defense. Including multiple attacker situations. And how some of the stuff done in BJJ is geared towards competition grappling and not practical self defense.

So while I know I must be a grappler I also know I need to be a striker. And I am trying to decide what striking art I want to take.

I had always been fascinated by the trapping Wing Chun oriented stuff in the JKD curriculum. But I have recently ran into a lot of the controversy about that as the MMA crowd seems to go after it as all hogwash.

On the plus side, I now live far closer to Sifu Hatch's JKD school. And for less then I am currently paying for BJJ I can take Jun Fan, Muay Thai, Savate, Silat, and JKD grappling classes that include wrestling, judo, and BJJ.

First of all thank you for reading this "Essay" and your patience. I apologize if anything contained in my story here offended anyone. But I have been seriously mulling this over and putting it all in type kind of helps me get perspective.

Is BJJ a good place to start for children? When should they start striking? Should I seek to get them crosstraining now? Or later?

Given my physical limitations is it possible that I should find another Grappling art other then BJJ? What striking art is good for someone in my situation?

Due to gout in my ankles and my heel spurs quick bursts of running speed are no longer possible. Not as in I could train for it, as in the joints simply do not move fast anymore. And probably never will. I am working on losing weight but seem to have severe metabolic resistence. Even when I am training super hard and watching my diet the pounds don't go anywhere. I get stronger, faster, more endurance, etc but stay the same size and don't get tone. So I may need to accept that and find an art that will accommodate my size and foot speed.

 

Hello again,

About the MMA people shunning Wing Chun - it's just a silly argument, it really is... but let's forget that for a moment because it's probably irrelevant anyway. You can learn other stand-up fighting arts/styles much faster than Wing Chun.

In context with what you wrote - it sounded like a quick turn-around of usable ability was important - from my own experience of the styles you listed:

• Jun Fan - If you've got an immediate requirement to learn application, this'll probably take too long

• Muay Thai - Great for confidence and a quick turn around of ability

• Savate - Forget it - unless you've got plenty of time and live on a boat

• Silat - Good stand-up, probably faster to learn than Wing Chun, not as fast as the boxing options

• JKD - Very variable, do you know who the teacher is? Potentially you could drop the BJJ and just do that, but it really depends on what their spin on it is...

• Judo - For the children, replacing BJJ with Judo is an option, and maybe more appropriate, in terms of not having to make as many decisions about escalation

I'll leave it to someone who's got children of those ages in martial arts to comment on what's best... it's a difficult question for me to contemplate.

For yourself?...

It depends how quickly you want to learn something useful vs. what depth of skill you want. What are your feelings about that?

 

BJJ is a great art for Kids (and adults). I would probably put Judo slightly ahead of BJJ for kids as it imparts similar skills but with a greater focus on breakfalls, but BJJ is still a great option. I see you are based in the states, have you considered Wrestling as a BJJ alternative? Wrestling is also a great art for kids and for adults. If you are looking at taking both a striking and a grappling art, Wrestling and Boxing combine well. The excellent takedown defence taught by Wrestling combined with the devastating striking from Boxing blend together well and allow you to develop good "sprawl and brawl" abilities.

Is this the youtube channel of the school you are currently training at?
http://www.youtube.com/user/dlhatch8/videos?flow=grid&view=0

 

Cool, nice term

 

Well, this is what I have to choose from:

This school is close enough and I can learn Muay Thai, and Jun Fan at the same time there along with a hybrid grappling program that includes BJJ.

http://www.attributivemartialarts.com/services/

After reading some threads about Judo I started looking at that more closely. I really loved playing around with Judo when I was a kid and the one street fight where it came into place was one of my few "triumph" moments in combat. (I literally was able to throw my opponent around like a rag doll after a block or two which was hillarious to watch from what my friends said.) Would Judo allow me to use my size as an advantage rather then a disadvantage?

This place teaches Judo but the tuition fees are insane.

http://www.japanesemartialartscenter.com/schedule.php

This school had a lot of options and a very reasonable price but no Judo.

http://www.a2amas.com/training_programs.php

I am leaning towards Sifu Hatch's school. He is very well accredited and has a great attitude. But he does not have a children's program so it looks like I may keep my kids in BJJ until they are 14.

 

Id recogmend judo and boxing/kickboxing or judo and JKD.
Of course in your case judo is expensive, but bjj will work equally well.

Have you considered Knockdown karate as an option? It is generally pretty cheap and focuses alot on sparring which could be helpful. But thats just me, I don't know your whole situation.

 

I have used BJJ to defend myself in multiple attacker situations. You would be surprised how well things work when you are very motivated and your opponents are very stupid. As a big meaty guy, you're going to find some things work better for you than other people and some things don't - I'd guess that this is true of anyone with any physique in any martial art. Judo and BJJ will both let you use your size to your advantage. One thing I'd be cautious of is when a gym advertises a 'hybrid style' that includes BJJ, you want to make sure that the teacher is actually ranked appropriately in BJJ and not just watching youtube vids. I followed your link to the Attributive Martial Arts though, and the guy looks legit - purple belts are no jokes! However, looking at the class schedule, you'd only have like, 3 hours of grappling a week, not a lot of time.

As for your kids, I think BJJ is great for them. As far as I know, younger kids usually don't train the joint locks and chokes, and focus on sweeps, guard passes and general grappling (although this may not be true depending upon your school). I'd guess that these things are enough to take the fight out of most bullies and sit on them until an adult is around.

 

I'd recogmend Judo over BJJ. Because Judo will have the child start out in a more agressive stlye, and they wont be taught to sit and be patient (to much) and they go out and try for things repeatedly instead of just sitting there.

Dont get me wrong the BJJ is still awesome!

 

I dunno, I think either way the kid is going to be a little grapplin' terror. I'm not going to recommend one over the other, I'd guess that either would be pretty durn effective in a schoolyard fight and probably not get the kid in too much trouble (blasting headkicks and shoryukens might land someone in detention). What would guide my decision for a kid is the atmosphere of the individual gym, how I (and the childling) felt about the head instructor, rates and convenience for commuting.

 

Couple of revelations.

Well I just found out the local YMCA has a Judo club and the cost is actually amazingly low. $70 for two months! The problem is the class for kids is on the weekends and I don't have them on the weekends.

Another issue is my kids want to do competition. I was watching some vids of local BJJ competitions with small kids going at it. My daughter in particular was rather happy to see young girls choking out young boys lol. Our BJJ instructor did not seem interested in getting kids into competition though so I don't know.

I will probably join the Judo club and do the JKD stuff. I just can't argue with the price. And it would give me something to do Saturdays.

 

my kids are going into judo. i'm going to strongly encourage wrestling once they get old enough to do it in school. wrestling, if your school offers it, might be a nice option because you won't have to pay for a private gym.

 

Yeah already looking at Wrestling. Though it's usually harder to get girls into the team.

 

hey welcome!

judo vs bjj for kids - Judo has a centralised governing body in most countries and has really developed standardised teaching methods for kids. they are insanely safe, fun and productive in producing good skill.
BJJ tends to be good but it depends on the club on how they teach kids sessions. one of the best/most well though out kids BJJ clubs at the moment is in germany and hopefully standardisation will eventually come out of that.
Both BJJ and judo offer kids comps but it's easier to find female competitors in judo

Wrestling - it wont be too hard to get your daughter on the team because she'll be hitting a growth spurt soon and will be bigger than most male competitors. she just needs to show some aggression.

take advantage of the school wrestling programs! it provides a great background for grappling - steve mocco did judo and freestyle and his sister is a pretty decent judoka.

for yourself - do whatever you enjoy!
if you want your kids to progress then definitely take up some judo to help the if they get stuck. there will be more to bond over.

 

can someone give me the jist of the OP ?

 

Summing it up.

Let me give you a bullet point version.

1. I am an overweight fellow with chronic heel spurs, gouty ankles that prevent fast bursts of speed. I am no stranger to being in fights and had a rough childhood. I read silly amounts of books about martial arts but was never able to get past the money issue. I am currently taking BJJ but I am having trouble with some of the tech because of the size of my body. I heard that BJJ was modified for smaller people and that is what it feels like when my 6'2 330 lb. self tries to use some of it. I am still enjoying it but I wonder sometimes if I might fit better with another ground style.

2. These are the schools in my area:

http://www.attributivemartialarts.com/services/

http://ribeirojjannarbor.com/Kids_Jiu_Jitsu_Self_Defense.php


http://www.japanesemartialartscenter.com/schedule.php


http://www.a2amas.com/training_programs.php

(There are of course more then this, but most of them I have weeded out. I have no interest in TKD.)

I want strong grappling skills for my kids as a base and then eventually for them to cross train into MMA/Striking stuff.

For me I am trying to figure out what school I want. I am currently leaning towards the Jeet Kune Do oriented school because it has a lot of things I want in it.

 

Oh and an update, our BJJ school IS in fact going to get involved in competitions so that concern is no longer a concern. My daughter wants to do it so badly. Obviously she has a LONG way to go first. My son it was a given he wants to compete at everything.

 

I would LOVE to hear a play by play of how that went. One of my main reasons for coming here was to talk about "What Works" hence my handle. When I start that thread I will link it here. Probably going to put it in the self defense forum.

 

bjj will work no matter about size. you'll loose weight with training, just stick it out.

the technique skill development takes some time and modification. i cant do all techniques the same as everyone cos my legs are super long but its about adaptation to your physique

 

Yeah I am slowly learning that. It is possible that I may switch to the JKD school as it teaches BJJ up to purple as well as other great grappling and striking at the same time for a good price. My kids I think are going to end up staying in BJJ though until they are old enough for JKD. (Not that JKD cannot be taught to kids, but the JKD school does not have a kids program.)

 

By the way, this is the thread I was talking about where I open discussion about "What works?"

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1074690593#post1074690593