Jujitsu vs bjj?

Another question from the inquisitive one!

I was just wondering if anyone could explain to me the difference between normal jujitsu and bjj. I assume bjj is a Brazilian adaptation of jujitsu, but exactly what are the differences?

Thanks guys

~Lea

 

bjj = ground fighting (it has throws as well), a specialization of Judo
jj = everything else (kicks, punches, knee, elbows, locks, throws) + some ground fighting (depending on schools/teachers/...)

 

Most jujutsu = not real jujutsu, not real Self defence.
BJJ ~ jujutsu based on judo with an emphasis on groundwork, high belt standards
Judo ~ the most common school of jujutsu with a focus in big throws, good belt standards
Koryu jujutsu - grappling with weapons for the japanese medievil warrior.

 

BJJ was essentially an isolated (from mainstream Judo) slight deviation of kodokan Judo, there are a few reason's why this happened and it didn't just become Judo, up until the 60s and 70s when (like Sambo, another outgrowth of Judo) it became something unique through the innovation of some notable practitioners who extensively cross trained in other grappling styles, brought what they learned back to there original art and combined it with what BJJ already had to make it a style of its own. Combine this with how drastically Judo's rules have changed in the last twenty years and they both become very distinct from one another despite some fundamental shared traits.

Jiu Jitsu was the hand to hand combat system of the Samurai, it was made up of various Ryu (school's) most of which where different from one another, just like you would find various sword school's, the closest thing to these still in existence are the koryu school's, I don't know the exact definition of a Koryu Jiu Jitsu school but basically I think it means Jiu Jitsu with a provable linage to an old Ryu, also the actual training in a koryu school is very different from what you find in most of what else gets called jiu jitsu, there also I believe pretty rare. Most of the other stuff labelled as Jiu Jitsu is usually a bad mix of pseudo Japanese Culture, a very frail connection to a genuine Jiu Jitsu linage, usually some Judo, some Akido, maybe a hint of Karate and Kung Fu, its usually pretty bad with the occasional exception.

Thats the history the practise is Jiu Jitsu classes are either self defence based, there linage is usually a mish mash of various traditional martial arts rather than a standardised style, this means two classes could look pretty different from one another, They also vary wildly in quality, or there Koryu schools where I believe the focus is more on tradition and history than self defence or one on one fighting. BJJ is a grappling art primarily focused on ground fighting for a one on one fight , because of this its usually trained as a combat sport as well as a martial art, this means a high deagre of alive training and pressure testing which pretty much ensures a high level of quality control, it also tends to have a very conservative attitude to belt promotion which adds to this.

 

I've attended two seminars in jujutsu, the 'older' Asayama Ichiden Ryu (16th century) and the 'newer' Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu (17th century).

A quick, oversimplified summary of what I found, is that the older the jujutsu, the more direct and 'simpler' the movements, but also more painful. Of course, lots in common in both.

 

A few corrections.

Uh, no, not entirely. "Jujutsu" (never "Jujitsu" or similar) is a generic or specific term applied to unarmed or lightly armed combative methods from Japan. While many Koryu forms are from the warrior (samurai/bushi) class, it is not specifically a "samurai" art... during the Edo period a number of non-samurai schools started to appear, commonly referred to as "commoner's yawara (an alternate pronunciation for "Ju" in jujutsu)".

Then there was the detail that the usage of the term "jujutsu" was far from universal, with different Ryu having specific terminology, either for their entire syllabus, or for different sections of it, including yawara, yawaragei, wa, wajutsu, hade, torite, kumiuchi, koshi no mawari, kogusoku, goho, torite kogusoku, yoroi kumiuchi, katcchu yawara, and so on.

From there we get modern forms of Jujutsu, including Gendai (modern era) forms, which might be Japanese, or Japanese derived (or, sometimes, with no real discernible connection to Japan at all...), which might be similar to a formalised MMA, with striking, throws, ground work, and standing locks, it might focus almost entirely on the ground, or have none at all, there might be weapon defence, or weapon use, or there might not. Typically, modern systems often feature more striking (commonly derived from karate or similar) than older systems.

Hmm, no, not really. There wasn't anything that was any such collection, each Ryu might have a syllabus that was a Jujutsu one (if they had one, that is), rather than each Ryu being part of a larger whole which is known as "jujutsu".

All Ryu are different from each other. There was no single body of knowledge that all Jujutsu systems draw from, with there being some gigantic differences across the range of systems that identify their syllabus, or part of it, as jujutsu. They might be almost exclusively throws, or have almost none. They might have a large weaponry contingent, they might have none, or it could be only in the form of weapon defence. There might be seated techniques, or ground techniques, or they might have everything done standing. The syllabus could be very big, or incredibly simple. The only thing that can really be said is that all the schools are different, and what Jujutsu means is dependent entirely on who is using the term.

Well, when you're talking about old systems of Jujutsu, the only ones are the old systems of Jujutsu... which are the Koryu. I'm really not sure what you're meaning by "the closest thing to these"....

No. It means it is an old Jujutsu Ryu (with a continuous lineage starting from a beginning date prior to the Meiji Restoration of 1868). There's a lot more than that, and it should be noted that most Koryu systems that include Jujutsu might not be Jujutsu Ryu-ha themselves, or might be Jujutsu Ryu-ha, but include a large contingent of non-Jujutsu methods and techniques.

Yeah, it can be fairly different, and it can also be fairly rare... again, many Koryu systems (even those who might include Jujutsu, or Jujutsu-like material) are commonly based more around weapon usage. Many of the more "Jujutsu-centric" systems are later forms, from the mid-late Edo period, with only a handful of earlier systems making the cut, so to speak. Some of the earlier forms include the Takagi lineages (Hontai Yoshin Ryu, Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Hontai Yoshin Takagi Ryu etc), a couple of Asayama Ichiden lines (not all, some only have weaponry forms), Takenouchi Ryu (which again features a large amount of weaponry systems), and a handful of others. Younger Koryu systems include Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu and Kito Ryu (both of which were instrumental in the training of Kano Jigoro, and went into providing much of the technical approach of Judo), Fusen Ryu, and a number of others. Some of these schools have branch dojo around the world, but many only have dojo in Japan, which does make them a fair bit rarer. For a taste, though, a number of Jujutsu-like systems are found in the various X-Kans (Ninjutsu organisations), although to study them specifically you're best off looking at the Genbukan or Jinenkan... and having some patience.

Some examples of Jujutsu systems:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EynoRgKpBkc"]竹内æµæŸ”è¡“ - Takenouchi Ryu Jujutsu (Jujutsu) - YouTube[/ame]
Takenouchi Ryu.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzTCQk2KHyQ"]Yagyu Shingan-ryu Taijutsu [Yawara] - YouTube[/ame]
Yagyu Shingan Ryu Taijutsu

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAsM7-m2sW4"]Hontai Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu - 16th Itsukushima Kobudo Enbu - YouTube[/ame]
Hontai Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsQqwAkNNqQ"]Shibukawa Ryu Jujutsu - 16th Itsukushima Kobudo Enbu - YouTube[/ame]
Shibukawa Ryu Jujutsu

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNH58RzuwPs"]Fusen Ryu Enbu. - YouTube[/ame]
Fusen Ryu Jujutsu

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhTpeCdANzA"]Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Jujutsu demo - YouTube[/ame]
Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu Jujutsu

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wml1vC4fgIE"]Kito Ryu May 4th Shimogamo Jinja - YouTube[/ame]
Kito Ryu - this is the Koshiki no Gata, also preserved within Judo from Kano's line of Kito Ryu

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMEf5ubY1vg"]Meiji Jingu Kobudo Demo 2011 : Daito Ryu Aikijutsu - YouTube[/ame]
Daito Ryu

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VQusDU0ACw"]$40,000 Martial Art Demo - YouTube[/ame]
Genbukan Ninpo Bugei and Kokusei Jujutsu Renmei, including a large range of Ryu's methods (Mugen Shinto Ryu Iaijutsu, Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu, Hontai Yoshin Ryu Takagi Ryu Jujutsu, Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu, Kukishinden Ryu Dakentaijutsu, various Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu systems, Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu, Kukishinden Ryu Juttejutsu, Koryu Karate, Yagyu Shingan Ryu)

Modern Jujutsu systems:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hB9msxuioM"]Judo Ju-Jitsu Kristiansund. - YouTube[/ame]
From Denmark

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bceg7TTPa7s"]Bushido Martial Arts Demo 2011 - YouTube[/ame]
Bushido Martial Arts (?)

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjRpTNWv7dY"]Quantum Jujitsu Demo with Sensei Jeremy Corbell - YouTube[/ame]
Quantum JuJitsu - very flashy....

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxCNEVM51pU"]Best Aikido Demonstration - YouTube[/ame]
Aikido. Although classed as a Traditional Martial Art (TMA), Aikido is realistically a fairly modern (in terms of creation date) form of Jujutsu, coming primarily from Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu.

Brazilian JiuJitsu

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYSednt08qM"]Roy Dean Academy BJJ: Combinations - YouTube[/ame]

Then we have systems like Wado Ryu Karate, which is really a modern synthesis of Shotokan and Shindo Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu, to the point where it is considered by some to be a branch of Shindo Yoshin Ryu.

As you can see, Jujutsu is a wide and varied grouping to look at... like any martial group. Not all Karate is the same, and in regards to Jujutsu, that's even more the case. Many will be more focused on locks and other grappling aspects over striking, but that's probably about as general as you could be.

 

I was on the right track id hope it was pretty obvious from my post which side I was more clued up on. You didn't give your take on my opinion of (most) modern Jiu Jutsu, Id be interested to hear that.

 

Ha, I was only doing corrections, no point correcting something that I'd agree with!

 

Wow, you guys are going way more in depth than I though

 

Oh, no, I haven't started going in depth yet...

 

Some might find this is worth a quick read.

http://www.koryu.com/library/mskoss8.html

 

CHRIS PARKER... best response to a question I have seen on MAP....

THANKS

SMURF:Angel:

 

JJJ is the grandfather of BJJ since it is the father of Judo. JJ Master Jigoro Kano created a new safer art in 1882 by editing out the lethal aspects of JJ and introducing rules and regulations. He wanted to create an art that would be accepted as an international sport, one that empasises throwing and wrestling techniques based on unbalancing and throwing an opponent and locks and immobilizations. He called it Judo which means soft way.
BJJ was derived from Judo and grappling forms by the Gracie brothers. Not much i can tell you about it that hasn't already been posted here.

 

Yeah like the chokes and throws...er hang on!

Did he?

Or flexible, pliable etc

"BJJ" has another lineage too IIRC, Luis Franca. Hopefully the BJJ guys will chip in there.

 

He took out the more immediately damaging techniques which were a hindrance to more resistant training like standing joint locks and striking.

 

I know it just makes me chuckle when people talk about lethal waza being taken out.

 

Judo does have illegal techniques such as the spine lock, illegal to use in a tournament because it is dangerous. heel locks and toe hooks and legs grabs are also illegal under IJF regulations. But if you get in a real life fight there are no rules.

 

Yes there are, however that is a different thread.