Changing Hapikido schools that have styles

Changing Hapikido schools that have different styles

Hi,

I'm new to the fourm (and to martial arts) and I am hoping that I can find some input to a few of my questions.

I have been considering taking up hapkido for the past few years but I have not had the time. Recently I've gone back to school and I am considering giving hapkido a chance. My program is 3 years in Halifax, NS after which I will move back to my home town, Vancouver, BC.

The only hapkido school available in Halifax is a Combat Hapkido school, while in Vancouver there are no Combat Hapkido schools that I am aware of. This implies that if I decide to stick with hapkido I will inevitably have to change to a different style when I move back to Vancouver.

While my motivation in taking hapkido is not purely to achieving rank, I am a goal oriented person and I know that once I have achieved a certain rank it will be a difficult if I am forced back to square one once I change schools.

Should I expect to be placed back as a white belt after changing schools with different styles? Are there certain styles that recognize each other's systems? Any recommendations on how I should approach such a transition?

Any input is greatly appreciated

Chris Metcalfe
Halifax, NS

 

Although I have never trained in Combat Hapkido, I believe after spending three years in combat hkd you will have a rapidly through the early ranks in hapkido. Your combat hapkido will have some similarities, maybe the basics, to hapkido In doing this, you have nothing to loose, only more wisdom to gain.

But then again I haven't trained in combat hapkido so I wouldn't know how similar it is to hapkido.

 

reply,

Juicyc, First off please don't get blinded by the name of combat Hapkido. This whole word is an oxymoron. Saying combat Hapkido, is like saying combat army, it's stupid. All martial arts are combat, martial comes from the word military. I have also seen this art in action, and well I won't comment on it. For your own benefit I would advise you to find a more traditional Hapkido school, if there is one in your area. If you have already made your mind up about training at that school, than just ignore this post. Good luck."namaste"

 

As a person who holds a 2nd dan in Traditional Hapkido (International Hapkido Federation - Moo Moo Kwan) and a 2nd dan in Combat Hapkido (International Combat Hapkido Federation (ICHF) or Cheon Tu Kwan Hapkido), I would like to offer some advice.

(1) Traditional Hapkido and Combat Hapkido are very different. Combat Hapkido has traditional Hapkido as its loose base but is more of a hybrid style, employing elements of striking styles, grappling, and jujitsu (and Hapkido). Combat Hapkido uses the name "Combat" to distinguish itself from traditional Hapkido (and does not pretend to be traditional Hapkido, see www.ichf.com) and focuses on techniques for a realistic style of self defence. Personally I love the people involved in Combat Hapkido and I love the art. It is a great stand alone art and an even better supplement to a core art. It is notTraditional Hapkido.

(2) If you train in Combat Hapkido, you may choose to earn rank. Do not expect your Combat Hapkido rank to transfer to a traditional Hapkido school. Because of the nature of politics, many so-called traditioonal Hapkido schools are very much biased towards Combat Hapkido, mainly due to the "old boy" network politics in Korea (and especially since Combat Hapkido was recognized as a legitimate "kwan" under the World Kido Federation.) If you train in both traditional and Combat Hapkido, you can expect flak from the traditionalists... from my point of view, Combat Hapkido is a separate style and worthy of study. It is not traditional Hapkido, but it is a good system.

(3) Combat Hapkido uses a rank system, but it is not mandatory. All students train according to their level, not rank. If you choose not to earn rank, it will not affect your training.

(4) In your situation, my advice would be to check out the school and see if the instructors and students (and school) fit with how you like to learn. I have always considered the individual school to be more important than the name of a style... and I consider it "stupid and immature" to disregard a school based on a name alone. If the school fits you, train in it.... regardless of the style name.

If anyone wants more information about Combat Hapkido, let me know and I'll try to answer it here, or check out www.ichf.com

Side note: Just so everyone understands why this post is a bit meaner than usual, I am a student of GM Pelligrini and I totally respect and admire the man. I respect and admire all of the incredible instructors in the ICHF and I get angry when uninformed people bash this organization. I make it a point to never bash a style or individual person... and I expect the same courtesy.

 

I've never met Pellegrini or trained with anyone that does Combat Hapkido, and all that I really know about it is from what I have read in magazines and this forum. That being said, if the above statement is true and they really want to distinguish it from traditional Hapkido, then why not create a whole new name for it? Why ride on the coat tails of the name Hapkido to sell this new "realistic style" all the while claiming that the art with the original name is deficient?

My understanding from everything that I have read is that Combat Hapkido is geared toward people that train 2 days a week for an hour at a time, physical fitness and mental training are not required, not to mention the health benefits of Ki training and breathing exercises are excluded. In the end, again from what I have read, the student has a list of techniques. This is fine for the average Joe who wants to know some self defense techniques or for someone that wants to suplement another art with these techniques and it ultimately serves this purpose.

I have to wonder what are the requirements to become an instructor in ICHF. It seems like schools are sprouting up all over the place. This part of the organization seems like a big money making machine. I was looking on the site and I found how to become an affiliate member, but I couldn't find anything about how to become an instructor of the art. I couldn't even find any information about what are the possitive sides of being an affiliate member. Maybe you could shed some light on this subject Thomsa? I did see the very expensive DVD set from white to black, WOW!

I'm sure it comes down to the individual instructors passing it on. Some schools that do Combat Hapkido probably train just as hard and just as good as traditional school. For instance, Thomas' school sounds very good.

I train in traditional Hapkido for the whole package. I love everything about it, and I've found use in everything I have learned. Sorry to get off of the subject.

 

I've never met Pellegrini or trained with anyone that does Combat Hapkido, and all that I really know about it is from what I have read in magazines and this forum. That being said, if the above statement is true and they really want to distinguish it from traditional Hapkido, then why not create a whole new name for it? Why ride on the coat tails of the name Hapkido to sell this new "realistic style" all the while claiming that the art with the original name is deficient?

All I know is that GM Pelligrini chose to use Hapkido as the base of his system. He never claimed to teach "traditional Hapkido" . In my opinion, he has never used the name to "ride the coat tails of Hapkido" either... and let's face it, Hapkido has never been a very common style and I imagine that Combat Hapkido has probably spread more knowledge about Hapkido to the public that most traditionalists ever did anyway.

In all of the classes I have taught or trained in and in all of the seminars I have attended and in all of the times I have talked with ICHF members, I have never heard anyone say "Hapkido is deficient."

Many of the traditional Korean stylists dislike Combat Hapkdio because it blatantly allows the free exchange of techniques from other styles, inlcuding Japanese ones. I think if he had named it something else, the Korean stylists would still complain and say "well it's actually Hapkido with some other stuff added to it." But, I don't get invloved in the political aspects... my job is to train, which I do.

My understanding from everything that I have read is that Combat Hapkido is geared toward people that train 2 days a week for an hour at a time, physical fitness and mental training are not required, not to mention the health benefits of Ki training and breathing exercises are excluded. In the end, again from what I have read, the student has a list of techniques. This is fine for the average Joe who wants to know some self defense techniques or for someone that wants to suplement another art with these techniques and it ultimately serves this purpose.

It works well as a supplemental form of self defence for people who may not have the time or desire to commit to a full scale martial arts style. It doesn't get hung up on rank and we teach everything to everybody. The flexibility allows us to teach to the students' desires in the class... and it's very popular with the women's self defence group and some of the guys who cross train a lot.

Some of our students use it as a core style... and earn rank. There is a very good system of set curriculum which is reinforced by the videos. To test for each level, part of the test is demonstration of all of the techniques by level.Students also can train in supplemental aspects, like ground fighting, weapons, and so on. Again testing is based on a set curriculum and reeinforced by videos.

We also incorparate this flexible system into our TKD self defence. It fits nicely and lets us play with more options.

I have to wonder what are the requirements to become an instructor in ICHF. It seems like schools are sprouting up all over the place. This part of the organization seems like a big money making machine. I was looking on the site and I found how to become an affiliate member, but I couldn't find anything about how to become an instructor of the art. I couldn't even find any information about what are the possitive sides of being an affiliate member. Maybe you could shed some light on this subject Thomsa? I did see the very expensive DVD set from white to black, WOW!

Promotion is based on the curriculum... all of it to your level. Also, you are observed and recommended for instructor. If you can't teach, you don't become and instructor... it's not automatically linked to rank. I recently was appointed instructor at the recommendation of my master. I am not sure how he evaluated me, so I really can't add much more than I wrote.
We are charter members, which allows our school to promote students. The testing fees are very low... including cross registration through the Kukkiwon (for TKD) and through the World Kido Federation (which recognizes our Combat Hapkido rank).

Getting into money aspects, the ICHF is a fulltime business. Their product is top quality seminars with some of the best martial artists in the world, first class videos, dvds, and books and top quality weapons and uniforms. Everything is sold at reasonable prices... comparable or cheaper than most other federations. By running it as a business the senior people in the system are able to work with people in a quiet informal seminar situation. How often do you get to train with the founder of your system? We get at least 3-4 chances per year... and could have more. Of every cent I have spent on this federation, I would have spent double or triple. The value has been there for me.

I'm sure it comes down to the individual instructors passing it on. Some schools that do Combat Hapkido probably train just as hard and just as good as traditional school. For instance, Thomas' school sounds very good.

I train in traditional Hapkido for the whole package. I love everything about it, and I've found use in everything I have learned. Sorry to get off of the subject.

I love the system and am constantly blown away by the amazing people involved in it. The people I have worked with have followed and demonstrated the tradtional values of humility, respect, integrity, and honor much more so than many of the other "traditional" schools who preach this, but don't follow it. I love the organization and the people in it.

I hate coming across as an "ICHF defender" but it is my style and the style is filled with people I love and respect. If you want to flame away, go ahead. I might just respond.

 

Thomas, I'm sorry if I came off as flaming. I was honestly expressing some concerns that I have had. Like I said I have never trained with anyone that has been involved with Combat Hapkido, so I can't really make assumptions about skill or attitude. But the articles that I have read that contain quotes made by Mr. Pellegrini, have been a little off putting with how he describes traditional Hapkido. When he says that Combat Hapkido is 100% self defense, I think 'Well that's funny the Hapkido that I practice is 100% self-defense too.' Of course there are different opinions on what is effective and what isn't, the high kicks debate comes to mind. His whole marketing scheme is to make it seem like traditional Hapkido is a bunch of ineffective mumbo jumbo.

Personally I have no problem with anyone that studies Combat Hapkido, if they enjoy it and feel that they are getting their moneys worth, workout and have fun.

 

I can appreciate Thomas’ point of view and I have met and trained with some Combat Hapkido people and I one in particular was very good. His name is Tony and he trains in Sarasota, FL. It really depends what you want out of your training and what you are willing to put into it. Bottom line is that you are receiving what you want from your training. Now with that being said…

Now my issue is about Pelligrini using "Hapkido as it's base" is that Pelligrini spent far more time training in TKD that he did in Hapkido. Once again, I have seen the vids and trained with his people, but what they were shown were just joint locks.

Is Hapkido considered just a bunch of joint locks? Of course not.

Besides the joint locks, everything else that is in the Combat Hapkido curriculum is added from other styles. The problem for many traditional Hapkidoists is now considering the Combat Hapkido curriculum only teaches joint locks from Hapkido, but everything else is from other arts, "why should it be called Hapkido?"

One of the key things that is missing from the Combat Hapkido curriculum is manipulating a person's center to off-balance them. This is why a smaller weaker person can do these techniques on a larger, stronger opponent. This is not done by "faking" or "striking." Tell me that this is not combat applicable?! The problem is that it takes time to teach and should be taught in the beginning.

Test this out… have a person grab you strong, and then consider this person grabbing you is someone you can’t hit (i.e. it’s a family member, someone younger, you’re a cop and this is a perp who is resisting but not yet violent). Then try to apply any of the techniques learned without striking. Did you have to “muscle it?” That technique would not have worked if the person were stronger. In Hapkido we cannot rely on being the stronger person.

And what about the “fake?“ Ok, what if the fake doesn’t work? What do you do then? With the body manipulation off balancing it doesn’t matter because it works as long as the person has a pulse. It doesn’t matter how smart they are or how strong they are. It works on natural laws that apply to everyone on this earth. This body manipulation off balancing is just one of the things that keeps traditional Hapkido from being “just a bunch of joint locks.”

I get a little frustrated when I hear people talk about Hapkido and it is considered just a bunch of joint locks. Many styles incorporate joint locks and do the same thing of using “fakes and strikes,” and all these styles are good, but they are not Hapkido.

Take care

 

I really didn't mean it to come out as an attack on you... as you know I value your opinion and I think we hold pretty similar ideas on training. My intent was to to try to either head off or open up a sane discussion on Combat Hapkido and Traditional Hapkido that doesn't center around blatant generalisms, inaccurate preconceptions, and built-in biases. I apolgize if anything I wrote offended you.

The aspects of the "marketing scheme" never came across that way to me. To me they cam eacross as a hybrid style which focuses primarily on self defnce and that wants to use the most effective techniques regardless of origin. As a traditional Hapkido person coming in to the Combat Hapkido Federation, I have never felt any sort of slight or bias from the ICHF people... something I cannot say the same of from other Traditional Hapkido people (not all).

By the way, I have read many of his articles in various magazines and the articles really don't represent what the ICHF is all about. Many of the articles focus on a couple of techniques and a very general introduction.

For me, ultimately it comes down to the individual instructor and school before the "style".

 

Now my issue is about Pelligrini using "Hapkido as it's base" is that Pelligrini spent far more time training in TKD that he did in Hapkido. Once again, I have seen the vids and trained with his people, but what they were shown were just joint locks.

Is Hapkido considered just a bunch of joint locks? Of course not.

Besides the joint locks, everything else that is in the Combat Hapkido curriculum is added from other styles. The problem for many traditional Hapkidoists is now considering the Combat Hapkido curriculum only teaches joint locks from Hapkido, but everything else is from other arts, "why should it be called Hapkido?"

Again, I don't know why he chose the name Combat Hapkido. That's something I am not qualified to answer. Combat Hapkido does contain elements of traditional Hapkido and Taekwondo and other stuff. Where the name comes from? I don't know.


One of the key things that is missing from the Combat Hapkido curriculum is manipulating a person's center to off-balance them. This is why a smaller weaker person can do these techniques on a larger, stronger opponent. This is not done by "faking" or "striking." Tell me that this is not combat applicable?! The problem is that it takes time to teach and should be taught in the beginning.

I am not quite sure about this point. I do know that in Combat Hapkido, when we use a technique to escape , we assume that we are training against a larger opponent and we usually use a distracting strike or fake. These techniques are demonstrated at the seminars, in the classes and on the tape. Granted on some of the tapes, the distracting strikes may be skipped in some of the repetitions if only to save a bit of time.

I may have misunderstaood your point but in all of my experience with Combat Hapkido, we always employ distracting techniques, leverage, footwork and circular movements to take an opponent off balane and distract them while we react.

 

Hi Thomas. Please don't think I'm jumping on you when I ask, besides the jointlocks, specifically what else from Hapkido is taught?

With my original quote, "Tell me that this is not combat applicable" is that Peligrini does not teach these principles that I am discussing, but yet he has the gaul to say he has taken out everything that is not combat applicable from traditional Hapkido.

Now getting back to plain ol' technique... In Hapkido, the majority of your techniques you should not have to "hit or fake to distract" when working with a larger, stronger person. (unless they are 300 pounds heavier ).

Ask yourself this... have you ever blown a technique on someone grabbing hard and had to say, "it would have worked if I had done xxxxx."? By moving from your center and using proper technique, a person can release/reverse the grip and subdue their opponent without the initial distractions nor excuses. Hey, I'm all for striking someone who really needs it, but as I said before, this is one of the main things that separates Hapkido from many other styles of martial arts that include jointlocking within their system.

I have no problem with people in the ICHF and I will continue to enjoy training along side them. My issue is with Peligrini and his false marketing.

I hate for this sound like an advertisement, but I would be honored to do a seminar on these types of principles for those interested to help explain these types of Hapkido techniques and principles.

Take care

 

Hi Thomas. Please don't think I'm jumping on you when I ask, besides the jointlocks, specifically what else from Hapkido is taught?

Yes, we do joint locks. We also do weapons such as the dan bong (short stick) and the cane. We also do breakfalls and use many of the hapkido kicks (like scoop kick, heel kicks, etc.) (Yes, I realize some Hapkido schools don't teach kicks.) We also do circular movement training. Also, we do sweeps, throws and locks which I have seen in Hapkido (although some are originally sourced from Japanese arts. But then again, you get back to the old argument What is traditional Hapkido? To which you can find many different answers.



I have no problem with people in the ICHF and I will continue to enjoy training along side them. My issue is with Peligrini and his false marketing.

I know some people who don't like GM Pelligrini and many who do. Where we may disagree, it's nice to see people who are open minded enough to say "well I don't like so-and-so, but I will still train with other individuals from the same system.". Thanks.

Again, I have trained both systems and I like them both. I find them fairly different personally and if GM Pellgrini changed the name, it wouldn't matter to me. To me, the name doesn't matter... I like what's in the system and the people I train with.

 

"combat army"....lol

 

Actually I hate being pedantic, but... in the (US) armed forces, they make a clear distinction between "combat arms" and "non-combat arms". Combat arms units are those such as Armour, Infantry, Special Forces, etc. and Non-Combat Arms units are those like the Band, Military Intelligence, and Medical. The distinction being that even if you are in the "army", it depends on what you do for a military occupation how close to combat you will come.

Along the lines of using the word "Combat" with martial arts styles, e.g. Combat Hapkido, Combat Jujitsu, etc, it merely differentiates that the style is distancing itself from the core traditional styles. And, it is just a name. As for Combat Hapkido, it is now recognized by the World Ki Do Federation as "Cheon Tu Kwan" Hapkido...