As a former 'JKD guy', I think it's probably best to leave these kind of discussions to JKD people, instead of looking for answers from TKD people, Karate people, Jujutsu people, Wing Chun people, Kali people, Muay Thai people, MMA people, etc. etc. I no longer consider myself a 'JKD guy', by the way. I'm now what you might call a 'MMA guy', and I'll explain why in just a moment. What's important to note is that I am in fact a former 'JKD guy', so you can trust what I'm about to tell you concerning JKD. Jeet Kune Do, or the 'Way of the Intercepting Fist' in Cantonese, was Bruce Lee's art and philosophy before he passed away. Jeet Kune Do is not to be confused with Wing Chun Gung Fu, nor is it to be confused with Jun Fan Gung Fu, as these are two entirely different systems. Nor should you confuse JKD with MMA, which is also something entirely different. Jeet Kune Do has a definate structure, just like any other martial art, and so it should not be confused with TKD or MMA, or anything else for that matter. JKD is JKD, so to find out how JKD people train, you have to ask a JKD person. The first thing most people want to know are your references. I used to train in Jeet Kune Do under a certified instructor who prefers to remain anonymous. Through him, I was able to train with several original students of Bruce Lee, either directly or indirectly. Among their names are Dan Inosanto, Taky Kimura, Daniel Lee, Ted Wong, Larry Hartsell and others. I also learned a few things from Jesse Glover, but that's a totally different system. Jesse Glover is not a 'JKD guy', and he will tell you that himself. There has been some confusion in the MAP community regarding Dan Inosanto's JKDC methods, and Ted Wong's OJKD methods, but the truth is that both men actually learned from the same person, and both of them taught the same thing. Ted Wong actually got his certificate from Dan Inosanto, so the argument is pointless. There is no such thing as JKDC and OJKD, those are just names created by people from the MMA community who did not fully understand Bruce Lee's art and philosophy. There is only one Jeet Kune Do, and anything apart from that should not be confused with JKD. I will admit, when I first heard about JKDC and what people were saying, I started to have my doubts about what Dan Inosanto was teaching. But after I finally got to know the guy, I realized that he wasn't teaching anything different from what other 'JKD guys' were teaching. There is no such thing as JKDC, just as there is no such thing as OJKD, and it often confuses me how people still think there's a difference between Dan Inosanto's methods and Ted Wong's methods. So to end this confusion, I've decided to openly share what probably should have been shared from the very beginning. Bruce Lee studied philosophy at the University of Washington in 1961, and began teaching Jun Fan Gung Fu to fellow students including Jesse Glover, James DeMille and Charlie Woo, to name a few. At that time, JKD had not been born yet. Jun Fan Gung Fu is not Jeet Kune Do, so please do not get the two of them confused. Jun Fan Gung Fu is a version of Yip Man Wing Chun which Bruce Lee modified while he was living in Seattle, Washington. I've heard a lot of the original students at that time consider Jun Fan Gung Fu to consist of 80% Wing Chun, with only about 15% of that system including methods from other purely Chinese styles. Some of the lesser styles Bruce Lee implemented into his Jun Fan Gung Fu system are Tai Chi Chuan, Tang Lang Chuan, Ying Jow Pai, Choy Lee Fut, Hung Gar and Chin-Na, so in a big way I think you could very well consider Jun Fan Gung Fu to be a Chinese American martial art system based primarily on Yip Man Wing Chun. Bruce Lee opened the very first Jun Fan Gung Fu institute in Seattle, at 4750 University Way, in 1963 to be exact. His assistant instructor at the Seattle school was Taky Kimura, but prior to this time Bruce Lee had also met Linda Emery, James Lee, Allen Joe, Wally Jay, Ed Parker and Ralph Castro, who all had a huge influence on Bruce Lee as time progressed. Bruce Lee published the book, 'Chinese Gung Fu: The Philosophical Art of Self Defense' in 1963, and it is the only book which was ever published during Bruce Lee's lifetime. If you read that book, you will have a very good idea of what Jun Fan Gung Fu consisted of in 1963, when Bruce Lee opened his first school. 'Tao of Jeet Kune Do' actually wasn't published by Bruce Lee, it was published after he died. Bruce Lee opened the second Jun Fan Gung Fu institute in 1964 in Oakland, which is where many people believe JKD was born. His assistant instructor at the Oakland school was James Lee, who Bruce awarded the 3rd rank to on March 4th, 1964. Then on August 2nd, 1964 is when Bruce Lee performed his famous demonstration at the Long Beach tournament with Dan Inosanto. That's also when Bruce Lee met Jhoon Rhee for the first time. Then in 1965, another Gung Fu master named Wong Jack Man challenged Bruce Lee to a fight at his Oakland studio. After their encounter is when Bruce Lee changed his philosophy and modified his own personal training regiment to create an entirely new system, which he called 'Jeet Kune Do'. Jeet Kune Do was taught at the Jun Fan Gung Fu institute in Oakland, but only because Bruce Lee never changed the name of his school. Jun Fan Gung Fu is not the same thing as Jeet Kune Do, and I'll explain the difference to all of you right now. Jun Fan Gung Fu consists of classical forms, whereas Jeet Kune Do does not consist of any forms whatsoever. Jun Fan Gung Fu focussed primarily on modified Chi Sao drills. Jeet Kune Do still has Chi Sao drills, but it isn't focussed on nearly as much. I've heard a lot of the original students of Bruce Lee consider Jeet Kune Do to consist of 60% Wing Chun, 15% Western Boxing, and 15% Western Fencing, with only about 10% of that system including methods from other styles. Some of the lesser styles Bruce Lee implemented into his Jeet Kune Do system are Muay Thai, Savate, Taekwondo, Jujutsu, Judo, Western Wrestling and Chin-Na. Now when I say Bruce Lee implemented different styles into his own personal unique system, I don't mean that he taught all those different systems at his school. It was not a MMA program. Bruce Lee only taught one system, JKD, which simply borrowed elements, principles or techniques from different styles and combined them into one formless art. By formless, I mean it did not have katas or kuens. JKD's main focus was on full-contact sparring, cardio exercizes and two-man drills. I don't know where people get the idea that Jeet Kune Do was made up of 26 different martial arts. That simply is not true. JKD was the next step in evolution from Jun Fan Gung Fu, which is why today many of Bruce Lee's students call it Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do, to distinguish it from MMA and other false JKD schools that try to use Bruce Lee's fame and philosophy to teach TKD, Karate, Gung Fu, Ninjutsu, Kali, Muay Thai, Aikido, or something else which isn't necessarily related to JKD in any way whatsoever. As I said before, JKD is not MMA, and it should never be confused as such when learning it directly. Bruce Lee opened the third and final Jun Fan Gung Fu institute in Los Angelos, California at 628 College Street, in 1966 to be exact. Notice he kept the name of his school, but by this time he was teaching Jeet Kune Do, which was totally different from what he had taught Jesse Glover and his Jun Fan Gung Fu students in Seattle, with the exception of Taky Kimura, who Bruce Lee kept updated on the new JKD regiment. Many newcomers to the L.A. studio were former students of Ed Parker, so it's no wonder why a lot of Karate guys try to implement JKD elements into their training. Ed Parker's system is not Bruce Lee's system, however, nor should anyone ever confuse JKD with Karate, Judo, Taekwondo or anything else for that matter. Bruce Lee's assistant instructor at the L.A. school was Dan Inosanto, who had actually started training with Bruce Lee prior to the opening of the L.A. school. Bruce Lee had been training with Dan Inosanto, Tony Hum and Wayne Chan at a pharmacy in Los Angelos, but the first person to actually join the Jun Fan Gung Fu institute in L.A. was none other than Daniel Lee. Bruce Lee awarded Dan Inosanto with the 3rd JKD rank in February of 1967. Bruce Lee awarded Taky Kimura with the 5th JKD rank on November 1st, 1967. Bruce Lee awarded Ted Wong with the 2nd JKD rank on December 8th, 1967. That year, Bruce Lee met Chuck Norris, Mike Stone and Joe Lewis in Washington, D.C. at a Karate tournament. Not one of these three guys lost a single fight during their JKD training with Bruce Lee. Then in 1968, Bruce Lee closed down all three of his schools and suddenly abandoned the ranking system for unknown reasons. He permitted a few of his students to teach JKD, but only in small groups under very tight conditions. A few years after that, Bruce Lee fell into a mysterious coma and died before his last film, 'Game of Death', could be completed. He was buried at Lake View cemetary in Seattle, Washington. His pallbearers were Robert Lee, Taky Kimura and Dan Inosanto. The rest as they say, is history. Shortly after that, Dan Inosanto opened his own Kali Academy where he continued to teach JKD in small groups. Dan Inosanto also gave JKD certificates to a few of the guys who were at the L.A. studio before it closed. Among them were guys like Ted Wong who he felt Bruce Lee would have trusted to preserve his martial arts legacy. The only problem with this is that Dan Inosanto didn't just teach JKD at the Kali Academy, he taught several different systems and scheduled several classes for each system he taught. So you had a lot of MMA guys who learned all these different styles from Dan Inosanto, and a lot of these MMA guys started to think that MMA was JKD, or that JKD was just a philosophy used in MMA training. That's where a lot of these different opinions and misconceptions came from. But it's important to note that Dan Inosanto taught JKD classes seperate from other classes. Never once did he teach Kali and call it JKD, nor did he ever teach Kenpo and call it JKD, because he was teaching different classes at the time. Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do is not MMA, nor is it a concept which can be applied or confused with other martial art systems. You can use the JKD philosophy to help you train in other martial art systems, but at no time should you ever get JKD confused with the style you are learning. A good example would be if I took Wing Chun's philosophy and applied it to Karate. Yes, that is MMA training, and yes, it would probably be beneficial to my training in Karate, but to then consider Karate to be the same style as Wing Chun would be absurd, and that is what people are trying to do nowadays with JKD, they are labelling it as something that it is not. I no longer consider myself a 'JKD guy' because I know the difference, and because I respect Bruce Lee's art and philosophy for what it truly is. Even though I train in Wing Chun, Western Boxing, Western Fencing, Muay Thai, Savate and all these other styles, that does not mean I practice JKD, because JKD and MMA are two totally different things. JKD has a definate structure. It has footwork, sparring drills, fighting stances and techniques which are completely unique to JKD, therefore it is important not to confuse that structure with any other structure you might have learned. I say again, MMA is not JKD. I truly hope this helps.
Not really. I think you are preaching to the knowledgeable in this forum. In addition please do not cross post. You have posted this alreeady on another thread.
A) You don't understand the difference between MMA and cross training B) You don't understand philosophy (the Tao that can be defined is not the true Tao) C) You clearly have little understanding of Dan Inosanto. D) You seem confused as to whether JKD is a style, a system or a training methodology
Sometimes I wonder why we bother naming things at all. JKD isn't MMA. Okay. I don't know that anyone has taken the opposing stance here. But whatever. I have a feeling that your definition of MMA is probably broader than mine in the first place. To me, MMA refers very specifically to the competitive format and training methodologies associated with it. That's not an evaluative distinction. It's just convenient. Taken literally, you could make the argument that anyone combining more than one martial art is doing MMA. And the moment you do that, the term ceases to be very useful. "Mixed martial arts" has been appropriated, to my mind. "Hybrid," "fusion," "integrated," and various similar descriptors are still at your disposal though. To my mind, it's a waste of time to argue about whether JKD and MMA are or are not the same thing. What's more important is whether there's content from one that can be brought to bear on a practice of the other. And, I believe, there's no real question there. There are absolutely elements of MMA that can be brought to bear on JKD. As a sparring format, MMA is very congruent with many of the questions that JKD attempts to answer. And since we're self-identifying, I have absolutely no personal claim to MMA. I have a training background with a JKD group, but don't really self-identify as JKD either. Take that as you will. Stuart
too long, brain exploded, cleaning mess up right now... need some super glue too.. other than that, yeah i know MMA is not JKD. I also know that blue is not green, that a computer is not a cow, i know that a pencilcase is not a phone... So yeah.....
I think Dan made the comment. There might be a vid of him saying so out there on youtube. I think theirs also a vid of Dan clarifying the statement. I believe Bruce in doing his research looked at 26 (possibly more) different martial arts. I believe he was researching the arts for 2 reasons. 1) to help come up with his art and 2) to also to learn the strengths and weaknesses of the other arts. I think for number 1 he widdled things down and finalized on hybridizing Boxing, WC and fencing. I think most people have misunderstand how to went about his research. I think most believe he learned all thes arts and took the best from each to then end up with a large amount of techniques. I don't think that's it at all. It's more like if I was looking at several different Italian dishes and wanted to combined them. I would look at a plate of spaghetti and meatballs, a plate of ravioli, a plate of lasagna and a plate of stuffed shells. If I took all of these plates and added them together it would be a real mess but that's not what I believe Bruce did. I believe he looked for the common functional, core, root and fundamental mechanics that made each system work. Then looking at those things figured which was most efficient and which things could be modified to fit in with that efficiency. So in my food analogy you would look at all the plates of food and come away with pasta, sauce, cheese and meat. So by looking at all the plates of food (styles), I've taken the main ingredients from each plate (core, root mechanics) and streamlined it and reduced it to it's simplest form (JKD). I now can make all the existing dishes (fitting in) or recombine them into new dishes(No limit). Because I know how to make pasta I can make noodles, angel hair, macaroni, bow ties, etc. I'm not limited to the one plate of food (style). I can then express myself (through cooking) using the base ingredients to come up with my own dish that when seasoned to my taste will then look and taste different than what Bruce was cooking while style using the same base ingredients. I think their are others out there who are basically taking a plate of ravioli and stuffed shells and combining them. By doing that they are increasing instead of decreasing.
Exactly - Bruce had EXPOSURE to 26 so that is what he drew his theories from. Quite how this got misinterpreted is probably die to either hiding an agenda or being a complete tit.
For whatever it's worth, there's a list of those 26 arts on the inside cover of one of Paul Vunak's early books.
I have that to hand..... Wing Chun Northern Praying Mantis Southern Praying Mantis Choy Li Fut Tai Chi (Wu style) Bagua Hsing-I Bak Hoo Pai (White Tiger) & Bak Fu Pai (White Crane) Eagle Claw Ng Ga Kuen (5 Family System) Ny Ying Ga (5 Animal) Bak Mei Pei (White Eyebrow) Northern Shaolin Southern Shaolin Bok Pai Law Horn Kuen Chin Na Monkey Style Drunken Style Fencing (foil) Boxing Wrestling Jujutsu Escrima/Kali Sikaran Muay Thai This does not include one of the aspects Dan felt was the most important which was Cha-Cha dancing for his footwork. Significantly it also does not include Karate (Lewis/Norris), TKD (Rhee) or any number of other guys he trained with. Possibly because they were people he trained with to polish his own skills rather than learning theirs Also it is worth mentioning that "exposure to" and "skilled in" are not always the same thing and that Bruce's skillset was certainly far more tilted towards certain arts.
A) Could you please explain? B) I will admit that I'm not very interested in philosophy. C) Again, could you please explain? D) No actually, I'm quite positive that JKD is in fact all of those things put together, but perhaps our understanding is different, so again, please explain. I will admit that my article was inspired by the disagreement between Browneagle and drees5761, which leads me to believe that there are people around us who are not as 'knowledgeable' about JKD as you think. I see a lot of useless information that is inessential to JKD, even now, after I've already posted my article in two different sections. So I don't agree. I'm not familiar with the term, could you please explain? I agree 100%, but I still felt the need to push for more solid clarification, in order to put an end to some of these misconceptions once and for all. But as far as what you are saying, I agree entirely with that statement. Also, you might have a good point in that our understanding of the term 'MMA' could be entirely two different things. To me personally, when I refer to MMA, I am referring to mixed martial arts, or cross-training in two or more different fighting styles. MMA to me would be like cross-training in Wing Chun, Boxing and Fencing all at the same time. The misconception to me is like calling that same exact MMA program JKD just because Bruce Lee said that all three of those styles were used in the making of JKD, which to me, sounds utterly ridiculous. To say that JKD is just a concept or a philosophy which has no structure, to me, sounds like a total misconception. Okay, see, I was not aware of that comment, but now I am. Still, however, even though it appears that Dan Inosanto later clarified that statement, it still seems as though there are people everywhere, all over the world, who insist that JKD was made up of 26 different martial arts. If he clarified this statement, then why are people still putting out false advertizements? JKD was not made up of 26 different martial arts. Bruce Lee may have looked into several martial art systems in trying to figure out what was best for his personal training regiment, but JKD is not MMA, nor is every one of those 26 arts included anywhere as part of the JKD program. Okay, and what exactly is the point of listing all 26 arts, other than to cause more misconceptions? Bruce Lee may have learned, or maybe even just studied 26 different arts during the course of his training, but none of that really has anything to do with 'JKD', so it does not matter. Studying up on something does not necessarily make it a part of Jeet Kune Do, and I still think a lot of people are going to be misled by that.
That's fine, but you posted in the JKD forum, so the post will predominantly be read by JKD exponents. If you had posted in general martial arts I would agree, there would be some ignorance in terms of JKD knowledge, not here though. I also think that as soon as someone says, "JKD is not this or that", then that person has no understanding themselves. I have said on here before that I do more JKD now than when I actually studied at a JKD school.
Misconceptions by whom? I totally disagree. You might train with a guy who does Karate and just like the way he moves his hips. Add that to what you do and it is JKD. What Bruce, or anyone else studies has everything to do with JKD. Everyones JKD is different, even within JKD schools. This is due to the exposure they have throughout their martial journey. To say otherwise is absolutely missing the point.
Honestly, to me, it sounds like just as much of a misconception to call wing chun, boxing, and fencing "mixed martial arts." The term wasn't in common use until the sport format guys began using it. Then, other people started adopting it, whether involved in the sport format or no, citing the fact that--literally--they were mixing arts. But that sounds, to me, like a legitimation rather than a genuine reason. And it feels like a way of association ourselves with a popular format and the highly accomplished athletes who participate. To my mind, the whole point of naming something is to draw a useful differentiation between it and something else. So if everyone who's ever trained in two arts and attempted to blend them is a "mixed martial artist," what do we call the competitive athletes? "Competitive mixed martial artists"? How useful is that? I feel the same way about JKD. The term refers to a very specific group of people, concepts, whatever. And while we might debate who falls under that heading, my personal take is that it makes most sense to apply it to people whose traceable lineage leads to Bruce Lee. End of. Without that, you might be pursuing a "parallel line of inquiry." But if that's the case, people should come up with their own damn name. Stuart
Again, I have to disagree with you brother, even now. Why? Because my article is posted in two different areas of the JKD section, along with the arguments and disagreements which inspired my article in the first place. There is ignorance within the JKD forum, in terms of JKD knowledge, which is being spread by the so-called JKD practitioners themselves. Example: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1779&page=8 I can see where that might be true, but then again, I also think it depends on who's talking, and what they mean by that. I know for a fact that JKD is not what a lot of people have made it out to be. If that were the case, then I would be a 'JKD guy', which clearly I am not. To be honest with you, I think I have a better understanding of JKD than some of the so-called JKD experts on this forum. So I think it really depends in what context that statement is made, and why, because I don't think JKD qualifies as just anything. I believe that there is a huge difference between what I do now, and what I did back then, though I do not consider what I do now to be JKD, which is why I do not label it as such. In my eyes, it's not Jeet Kune Do, because what I learned back then was Jeet Kune Do, and I have since dropped the name of 'JKD' and moved on to other things. Yeah, this is where you and I seem to butt heads. I do not agree with your method, at all, unless 'what you do' is Jeet Kune Do from the very beginning. You can take JKD's structure, and modify it slightly to your own personal discretion, but you can not take a Hung Gar practitioner and have him move like a Karate guy, then consider it JKD, because you have to have that JKD structure to begin with in order to make it your own. If you don't, then it doesn't matter what you like or how you move, it just isn't JKD. Yes and no. Again, I think it depends in what context you're refering to. Is everyone's JKD different? Well, assuming everyone is a 'JKD guy' to begin with, then yes, I would agree with that statement. But does that mean I can call my own method 'JKD' simply because I have my own style, even though I never trained with Bruce Lee or any of his students? I don't think so, I think you have to learn the structure first before you try to break away from it. I see where the term 'MMA' might be confusing in this case, and I agree. I don't know if perhaps there is another term I should use that would be more appropriate here. If anyone else knows another word for what I practice, then nobody has told me yet. I cross-train in different styles, if you can even call it that. It's more like sparring with different people from different systems, and just exchanging knowledge as you go along. I call it 'MMA', but you might know a better word for it than I do. In this case, it actually seems quite useful. Thanks. Here is where we both agree. That is why I do not consider what I do to be JKD any longer, because since then I have strayed from Bruce Lee's method and decided to go my own way. At that moment, I had to let go of the name of JKD, because it was no longer JKD, if you understand where I'm coming from. I do not consider myself a 'JKD guy', I consider myself a 'MMA guy', for lack of a better title. I don't think half of these so-called JKD practitioners are being true to Bruce Lee's method. I think a lot of them are just using the name of JKD as an excuse, or because they wish to be associated with Bruce Lee even though they have no traceable lineage. I agree with you 100% on that statement. I think those people should stop using the JKD name, just like you said. If you don't practice JKD, don't claim to.
Mind if I sig this? Also, while I agree that you might be preaching to the choir here, the OP was a pleasant-enough read. While I might not agree with all that was said, it was nice to pick through.
Several reasons actually - 1) Some are unaware of what they actually are 2) It was directly after a couple posts making direct reference to it - if you find it so confusing then why bring it up in the first place? 3) Only a complete pillock would be confused 4) It has EVERYTHING to do with JKD - how else do you think he got his points of reference? So far you are doing a lot of talking but not saying too much
1) Why is that relevant to Jeet Kune Do? 2) My comment about the 26 arts was only to point out the irrelevance of it, not to make it the highlite of a Jeet Kune Do discussion. 3) If I'm confused, I don't appear to be aware of it. I'm actually not confused, I'm convinced, that none of those styles on your list bare any resemblance to JKD, and that the 'pillock' you refer to is any inexperienced JKD student who wishes to have a better understanding of Jeet Kune Do, but can't because they are being misled by useless information. 4) What are points of reference? From what I understand, those 26 arts are only as relevant to JKD as a bibliography is to the back of a book. Other than that, I don't really see any reason why they should even be mentioned at all on this forum. JKD is not a style madeup of 26 different martial arts, and I guarantee you Bruce Lee never trained in every single one of those styles, much less implemented a fraction of them into his own personal training program. Most of them were just styles he studied from videos or books. He never actually practiced them, and if anything, he was probably looking for ways to use JKD in exploiting their weaknesses. So my opinion on this subject hasn't really changed. I'm still convinced that none of those styles are relevant to Jeet Kune Do, so you're really just throwing this topic around in circles. If it requires over one hundred pages of text just to make a simple point without saying too much, then I'm satisfied with that, and I will feel as though I've paid my respects to the JKD community by doing so. Also, ap Oweyn said something about being a 'mutt'... I like that. I guess you could say that's exactly what I am. That's how I feel, at least. ^_^ Happy training!
