By special request from EWBell To clarify, I would like this thread to actually be about not does the level of quality control suck, but does this create a better end product. I have always personally viewed the Genbukan as the org that would keep strict requirements in place for grading etc to maintain the integrity of the Ryu Ha (something possibly pushed by them too). However, if you know xyz techniques, but have poor form, can you say that you maintained the essence of the art? Look at McDonald's - they have great QC, but a poor end product. If that burger was all we had as an example of what a burger was in some future world, it would be a much sadder place. Discuss.
Per your earlier example... Look at GJJ - they have great QC AND a great product. A bit more applicable analogy per your own statements here. The McDonald's one is better suited for the original thread.
It depends on what you mean with end product. As said by Soke (in an interview) Genbukan is about preserving the arts. For example, I am a low kyu level student with a couple of years of study under my belt. This means I am fairly good at ukemi and kaiten, know several kamae and tehodoki, a couple of jujutsu kata, and a couple of locks like ura kote gyako and omote kote gyaku. And I have done a crapload of kihon Everyone with the same grade will have learned the same things. The idea in the kyu level curriculum is to have a structured approach to learning the basics that you need is you later on get to learn ryuha specific kata. From that pov, this is a good approach. Most people will quit before they get to the point where they can learn the ryuha. That doesn't matter. Some students will persevere and study the ryuha, and the ryuha will be preserved by the best students. That is what the Genbukan is for. At least that is my 2 cts. For other purposes, bujinkan may be a better fit. I would not say that we are better than the booj. However, for the specific purpose of learning specific arts, I think it is. I know this thread got started indirectly by the pictures of the kamae on the master level page. However, if you want to judge the movement and form of those people, it would be better to look at the various clips on youtube, involving those people.
Thanks for explaining. I guess my experience (since we don't have consistent guidelines I can't speak for everyone) is that we don't restrict learning like this, but instead learn everything. Needless to say that there is a lot of material to cover so maybe we skim over it and then can go back to explore more deeply, as opposed to you who read only a couple of pages at a time but make sure you 'get it' before moving on. I can see value in both approaches. I see the Kihon and Kiso as the scales, so once you can understand them you should be able to pick up Waza much more easily as a Waza is a snapshot of set movements that will only be effective if your Kamae, Timing, Distancing, Angling are correct. Let me ask you, with a couple of years in could you do the following techniques: Zenpo Ukemi Tate Nagare Sokuho Geri Koho Geri Kakushi Geri Oni Kudaki Muso Dori If yes, could I ask what Kyu you are?
True, having bad kamae doesn't mean you can't fight or demonstrate the techniques, but it does lead people to wonder what else is bad if something as basic as kamae isn't. Limiting the amount of things learned does not ensure quality, naturally exposing students to more than they can handle from the start doesn't either. Probably an approach somewhere in the middle works best. From looking at many of the foreigners in the Genbukan(on video that is), it appears to breed automatons, who all look pretty much like copies of each other but something seems to be missing. It seems to be the opposite of some of what you see in the newer foreign Bujinkan community with all the running all over the place and New Age kind of movement. Perhaps you or someone else should post something from the organization that you think is representative. Without the imput from people higher up the ladder though, this conversation won't get that far probably.
I am a 7th kyu level student, practice both ninpo and KJJR jujutsu. In normal circumstances, the curriculum alternates per exam. A training session consists of warm up, kihon, and then a couple of drills that depend on what the instructor want to cover that day. At the end of the class, there is kyu specific training where everyone works on the material for their grade. So for example if someone comes in with a white belt, they will first work on 10th and 9th kyu ninpo. After a while (this can take a year) they take an exam. If they pass, then they will work on 10th and 9th kyu jujutsu during the kyu specific part of the training. 10th and 9th are taken together at several dojo. I don't know if it is a rule or not. Part has probably to do with the fact that 10th is mainly different ways of bowing etc. From then on it is 8th ninpo, 8th jujutsu, 7th ninpo, 7th jujutsu, etc... From the list you've put up, we have covered all but the last 2 and kakushi geri (could this be something also known with another name?) I've seen onikudaki as part of goshinjutsu drills (self defense style exercise) but not for my kyu. I am 3 years and a bit in. Someone with 7th in both systems will have seen - various ways of bowing - various kaiten and ukemi - several kamae and how to perform kihon in those kamae - several standing and seated tai sabaki - some taihenjustu - various tehodoki from standing position - kasumi dori, do gaeshi and karame dori - omote and ura kote gyaku - omote and ura take ori From 5th kyu onwards, the curriculum is a bit more technical from what I've seen so far (meaning more locks and throws, taihodoki, escapes, etc). Most of that builds on the basics learned in the first 5 kyu levels. That probably why a large amount of times is spent going over the basics. For example, ura kote gyaku has taken me quite some time to get the hang of. And kihon of course remains important. We do kihon every training, and while we still do the same drills at the beginning, I keep learning more from them. Every time I think I understand what it is about, I discover something else. Anyway, does this answer your question? It is true that there is a LOT of material to cover. This is why it takes about 10 years to get to black belt in both systems. At that point you can begin learning ryuha specific kata. Getting to 5th dan and taking the saki test (the equivalent to the bujinkan version) is somewhere from 20 to 25 years.
Just another form of a not so good thing. Too loose, not good. Too stiff, not good. Looking the same but not having the internal things happening the same, horrible(depending on your level, this can be very humbling). That is an issue I am having now. I can do things that look pretty similar to my teacher on occasion but the result it creates is not the same. I can also sometimes feel that I am putting too much power into something halfway through a technique and try to be less obvious in application. Of course I can apply the techniques at a beginner or intermedite level, but that isn't the focus now and I try not to revert to doing so just to show I can do the technique.
From your description, it sounds very much like what people call Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, a hodgepodge of jujutsu(whatever that means) and ninpo(whatever that represents) being taught back and forth at the whim of the teacher. If it isn't the ryu material, then what is it? If it is from the ryu, which ones? If it is indeed not the ryu material, how does this teaching structure ensure that the ryu are protected and passed on correctly? By keeping them away from the foreigners who aren't serious about the art(or haven't gotten far enough along to be ensured with learning them)?
I think it is 'just a thing'. Look, I am far from qualified to make broad statements. Bujinkan is very different from Genbukan. I really like the very strict approach that we take. It does not chafe for me because it is how I like to train. I would not feel at home in Bujinkan. That does not mean I think Bujinkan is bad. It is just not at all how I like to train.
If that's how you feel, that's cool, but how do you know that these statements are accurate? That's pretty much where I'm at. Different people like different things and find value in different approaches. As you've said, in the end, it comes down to personal preference. It's too bad crosstraining is so taboo. These types of threads would probably drop by the wayside.
How do I know that being too extreme is bad? You can try it out for yourself. All you need is find someone better than you and try to resist them and see where it gets you. Then try to be too New Agey and see where it gets you. Surely you can find examples of both kinds of movement in the Bujinkan but the Genbukan tends to be more stiff(some might prefer to say crisp) in its demonstration of the same techniques. Without hardness inside your softness and vice versa, you will never get the Takamatsuden. Bad foreigners who don't know as much as they want to believe can be found in both but the major difference between the Bujinkan on one hand and the Genbukan (or Jinenkan) on the other, is the number of Shihan in the organization. With just Tanemura (or Manaka sensei), you only get their viewpoint. In the Bujinkan you have Hatsumi sensei's plus the shihan's.
RP, Our Ninpo Taijutsu would be similar in some ways to Budo Taijutsu, in that it is a mix of techniques from the various ninpo related ryu-ha, with a bit of Tanemura Soke's spin on it. The KJJR curriculum is similar in that it is a mix of techniques of various ryu-ha like Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Asayama Ichiden Ryu, Yagyu Shingen Ryu, etc. The ryu-ha themselves are a separate study, and there can be a difference between the Ninpo Taijutsu or KJJR way of doing something, compared to the ryu-ha way.
Sorry. All good points, but what I meant was how do you know that your opinion of the Genbukan method and its results is accurate?
I don't know, it is my opinion based on what I have seen like: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1GiS9KtHK0"]玄æ¦é¤¨ Genbukan World Takai 2007 in Japan - YouTube[/ame] look from 1:00-1:17 for the testing part and again just before the 2:00 mark. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLYCwxLAOOg"]玄æ¦é¤¨ Genbukan Hokkido Shibu Dojo Opening Ceremony - YouTube[/ame] Or this. Granted he isn't a foreigner but in particular Mr. Morisawa [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wul3O_0d0YI"]Genbukan Ninpo Taijutsu - YouTube[/ame] Or this. I could continue but...
There is a secondary issue btw. The first is already mentioned, namely that the Genbukan approach is much more strict in all aspects than the bujinkan approach. We can argue the pro and contra of each approach, but with quality instruction you'll get there in each system. The other issue, and one thing in which Genbukan beats bujinkan in the QC debate (imho) is the fact that within Genbukan, there is no room for freewheeling. Much of the controverse about Bujinkan stems from people like mountainous, RVD, and others. Their existence is condoned and even encouraged. Not only do they tarnish the image of the organization, but they gather students who will then learn lots of bad habits and propagate the high level of 'suck'. In Genbukan, such people are actively discouraged, and expelled if they keep it up. This holds true from 10th kyu level students to even master level instructors. Every teacher in Genbukan is supposed to do things the Genbukan way. Genbukan may be much smaller than the Bujinkan, but if we look at averages and percentages of people doing things that have nothing to do with the art or proper instruction, we have a higher standard. Not because there are more good instructors in Genbukan or Genbukan top ones would be better than Bujinkan top ones, but because there are more bad ones on Bujinkan (if that makes sense).
Thanks for explaining how you guys go about things, it is nice to see that you are dedicated and that you seem to get a lot of enjoyment from what you do. I am also impressed that everyone kept things civil - this is starting to worry me a little.
That's because there's a secret Genbukan hit team out there somewhere who have Jamie Alexander tied to a chair, under guard and in a remote mountain village miles from the nearest net connection. If it's freaking you out that much I can do a mean impression of Mark Spada if you want?
