Tai Chi: The Martial side?? Hello All, I am planning on beginning to learn a martial art some time soon. One of the arts I am considering is Tai Chi. I am particularly drawn to Tai Chi because of it's famed and multifarious health benefits.I do, however, want to learn skills which might be of use to me in a self-defence situation, should I be unfortunate enough to find myself in one. I have a few questions: 1)Which style(s) of Tai Chi would be most suited to someone who would like to learn the more martial/external side of Tai Chi. Basically I am looking for a good balance between the practical self-defence side and the health side of it. I know wudang style is more externally orientated but there is only one club that I can find and they only teach it in combination with San Da and Shuai Jiao and they are also full contact, all of which, I think, may be a bit of a baptism of fire for a 41 year old MA novice! 2)This is the website for a school which runs classes very near to where I live http://www.irishtaichi.com/index.htm. I cannot tell from their website which style they teach or if they would be any good for what I'm looking for. Perhaps some of you might take a look and tell me what you think? 3)While I do not, by any means, expect to learn self-defense skills overnight, being 41,I do not want to take up an art where it takes many years before you even scratch the surface of it's self-defence skills. Is this what Tai Chi would be like? 4)It's occured to me that perhaps I should study tai chi for its health benefits and some other art for the self-defence skills. Would anyone out there have any ideas on which other arts might compliment tai chi in this regard. Sorry for being so long winded!
I started the same style of TaichiChuan as Niall Keane at 49 who you reference for San Da and Shuai Jiao and full contact. I have never trained with Niall personally, but I know a lot of folk who rate him and his style of teaching very highly. Im quite sure that they will not have you doing full contact from zero. The trick is in gradual conditioning using TaiChi principles. In time there would most likely be some San Da builtin with kickpads/boxing pads. My experience with 16 Wudang teachers in nearly 4 years is that teachers take you to your level and not further until you are ready for that next step. When I look at Niall's vids on youtube, I see arguably the best explanation and structure of teaching the Cheng Tin Hung lineage TCC available. Its difficult to make sense of Taichi forms if you don't gradually explore the martial aspects as well. As and when I return to Dublin (as it seems like there contract jobs again in Ireland), Niall Keane's place is the first place I would be heading for. For other MA in Dublin, I wold go to the Wild Geese Eskrima fellows - Dave Hedges and another chap whose name I cant remember.
The other chap is Paul Cox. I trained in Escrima and Kenpo with Paul for a few months last year. I got a really bad flu which left me wiped out for weeks after and I fell away from training after that. I may go back to them but I want to explore other options also. You say that you started training in Wudang at 49. Had you trained in other arts before that?
From 20-27 I trained in Aikido and retired due to very serious whiplash injuries that I had received. I got over these injuries and learned how to avoid them from 27-49, but I kept myself fit and in good condition. I should have restated MA earlier, but things got in the way e.g. travelling and work and other stuff. I sometimes fall away from training, but its worth sticking at it, in spite of difficulties. You may know Hubud drills from Eskrima. These drills are very similar to TaiChi pushing hands exercises. Tonights Eskrima class, I specifically got my teacher to work on Hubud with movement for about an hour or so. In my mind Eskrima and TaiChiChuan are extremely complementary, but very few people are skilled in both. Eskrima and the Wudang TaichiChuan of Niall Keane/Dan Docherty/Cheng Tin Hung lineage (and quite possibly other styles but I couldn't be sure) are very big on evasion, which I believe to be the major aspect of any MA to learn - get out the road of trouble and don't get hit.
Ah you did Aikido. That's another art I've been considering. There are a number of clubs very close to where I live. Are these whiplash injuries common in Aikido? Would you advise me to keep away from Aikido? I have heard it takes a long long time before you learn useable self-defense skills from Aikido. Would you say this is true? As for getting out of way of trouble: from the little bit of training I did and the research and reading I've done since, I'm beginning to understand the absolute importance of footwork. By the way. I had a look at those videos of that guy Niall teaching which you posted on another thread. He definitely seems to be a good teacher. He is not teaching in Dublin now though. He has started teaching in Navan. There's another guy, whose name escapes me, who is teaching the Dublin classes. Oh, did you train with Wild Geese?
If you are considering Aikido, I might be able to help you (with my limited knowledge of Aikido). If you are considering Aikido, I recommend [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshinkan]Yoshinkan[/URL], [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iwama_ryu]Iwama Ryu[/URL] maybe even [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aikikai]Aikikai[/URL] if the school/club is good. Please be aware though that when seeking Aikido school their is a higher chance of running into a "flowery" Aikido school filled with Aiki-Hippies, which basically means that they don't really focus on martial effectiveness. Some videos (they are demo's and exercises, just to be clear): http://youtu.be/bc3o1ALOrGk http://youtu.be/nED6B5gmztw http://youtu.be/F3NmaYu2Kvc Will add on later.
Not sure about the whiplash, but generally Aikido injuries involve the joints, and sometimes the muscles and bones, since some of Aikidos prominent traits is its joint locks. Compared to other hard arts, like boxing, you won't really suffer the same amount of injuries. In terms of self defense, some people say that it takes 10 years, other 3. My opinion is that if you train hard and find a good school, applicable skills for self defense should appear between 2-4 years. After the first year, self defense skills should start to emerge, 2 years and they'll become more prominent, 3-4 years they'll become very good. Aikido has a slow learning curve, due to the fact that you start out in static positions and once those are down, you move onto more dynamic movements. At my club, we always focus on martial effectiveness. During techniques we make sure we are properly covered, like correcting our stance because we could be kneed in the crotch or adjusting Nikkyo because you are leaving an opening to get punched in the face. We utilize Atemi to unbalance frequently during techniques (never use a technique until he is unbalanced) Randori is a blast, and Sensei is always saying to put some pepper behind the attacks, and try to actually hit the Tori, because: 1. If you give bad attacks you aren't presenting a challenge 2. You are conditioning the Tori to bad attacks, which is a no-no I've come away from Randori with a headache (Sensei's Shomen Uchi), and bruises on the chest (Tsuki's from my classmates). So really, train hard and find a good school!! (Demos and presentation) Aikido freestyle show at Taiwan Taipei: http://youtu.be/k2axeva_RlQ Aikido Self defense: http://youtu.be/h__CdPeJoXo Aikido at 1000fps (check this one out, it's pretty cool): http://youtu.be/twP5Des9e7M Feel free to drop by the Aikido forum. Also, for what ever martial art you choose, make sure you sit in for a trial class. The martial art could be great, or the website might sound great, but the actual class could be crap. I've had several occasions where a martial arts school looked and sounded great, but was actually crap. Anyways, I wish you luck!!
Thanks for the info, advice and encouragement. I like that video of your class. I like the music also. who is it. Is sigur ross?
Ooooooohhhh man! Yeah, get into tai chi. My brother and I are CONSTANTLY going at it and my tai chi has been really giving me the upper hand. He's really into jujistsu-style fighting but now that I've learned the taiji he's always on his butt. Get into tai chi! Plus, it's like a baptism of fire for your legs. People who think that TC is just for old people are just ignorant. Try holding ward-off form or push form for about 5 minutes without falling over! Go tai chi!!!!!!! :hat:
Sorry.... just trying to show some support. I really do love tai chi, though. Here's my take on your questions! 1. I do Chen Manching 37 short yang form. If you want a harder form though, do the Chen Form. 2. Just go to a class. If it's just a bunch of dancing old farts, then duh. Don't stick around. You'll find a teacher to fa jing you into a wall if you look hard enough! 3. You get into a good TC class and yeah, you'll learn how to fight pretty well. TC people who are really good can break bones. Once you learn a part of the form, like in ward off my teacher Grandmaster Lee taught me how to use it to ground the energy before doing a different thing. Yeah, with the right instructor you'll learn to fight right away. Just ask them if push hands is included. If not, find someone that does! 4. Like I said, try holding ward off for 5 minutes. Hell, if you can do it for 2 minutes I'll be impressed! Then you tell me about it's "health benefits". and as for fighting, if you wanna learn to fight, then just do it! Tai chi is as deadly as any other MA (except maybe like, jujitsu... those guys are TOUGH....) and I'll tell you what, I'd love to demonstrate! I love sparring. I mean, maybe you should just learn nujitsu or something. Learning to USE the tai chi takes sincere effort, just like anything else. But if you put in the time.... :hat:
Never trained with the Wild Geese, just know them by reputation and I like what I saw on Youtube. Aikido vs TaiChiChuan initially you will have to choose one and stick at it a while - both are difficult - and take time to develop. Both involve non-trivial mechanics - which are different - and interpretations vary in both accross teaching styles. Very good and very bad Aikido and Taichi are around - so its important to find something that a) suits you (your fitness level, interest level) and b) has credible lineage. In both cases, if you do not like what you see on day 1 due to ineffectivenes - leave instantly - life is too short. Both Aikido and TaichChuan (more seriously due to Communism and subsequent post-communism re-marketing) have been corrupted for one reason or another (many of.) Evasion is central to Aikido and the TaiChiChuan of Niall/Dan Docherty/Cheng Tin Hung in so called 'Wudang' style (the name is a bit of a misnomer). Other families/styles Im less sure about. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Aikido summary: Where Aikido really scores IMHO, is the sheer level of codification and agility of mobility dynamics. Where Aikido is weak is a) there is never enough time possible to train effectively against boxing combos and kicks - they are not in the syllabus, with heavy bags - unless you a) seriously get very good basics in place and b) take cross-training seriously e.g. boxing/kick-boxing. Aikido starts to take its toll on your body as the years go by - unless you are very, very carefull with recovery. I got it right through my spine , hips and shoulders through too much heavy training. A lot of folk get it in the knees. I got over this, and I still go back to Aikido when I can as the systematic nature and structure is very, very good - particular in Iwama Aikido i.e I revisit the basics. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ TaiChiChuan Summary: Where TaiChiChuan really scores is a) its kinder on your body as you get older - there are more recovery mechanisms (in all styles) and b) you can train straight away self-defence, competitive pushing hands, boxing, San da - if that is how your teacher wants to teach you that way - and you want to learn like that - but you are not forced to. This is how I started, I only started to train Forms significantly about 2 years ago. Where TaichiChan is weak IMHO is, a)there are some folk whose TCC is as martial as marshmallows b) the depth and width of full transmission is vast i.e. there is no hope in hell of picking it all up quickly and c) TCC does not have anything like the systematic quality of codification that Iwama Aikido has i.e. a lot has too be experienced - which is by definition a subjective interpretation, and its not easy to teach in martial way. That said Niall's vids on youtube are excellent (once you get past his Dublin brogue accent.)
Hi,Cd. 1) There is no "better" system amongst legit TC transmissions for functional application. The difficulty is finding knowledgeable (sp?) practitioners who teach it. As mentioned, it's doubtful you'll be served up as "fresh meat" for the gang if you go to the WuDang school. TC is a martial system. So function isn't the "external" side of TC - at least any more than it is in Goju-Ryu Karate. The CMA teacher and writer Adam Hsu once wrote an article titled "Function:The Soul of Kung Fu". 'Bout sums it up. 2) Nothing at that site you linked indicates a serious martial study. 3)As mentioned previously in the thread, depends on how taught. 4) If you want to study TC do TC. If something else then do something else. If you seriously want to practice TC form only for its health benefits you still must undertake arduous training and practice your form for an hour-every day. If you're willing to do that then you might as well just go do the whole TC ball 'o wax. Whatever you do,as Seventh said "train hard and find a good school!!" Embra-TC is only kinder on the body as you age if you stop being banged on and hurled about! Like any system it's about changing training over time. Funakoshi wasn't being "the opponent" for full speed takedown practice by his students when he was 80. A lot has to experienced/felt, one can't teach experience,I'm unsure of your meaning in this- "... a lot has too be experienced - which is by definition a subjective interpretation, and its not easy to teach in martial way." I too find FMAs to mesh in quite well w/TC-although I find certain Pentjak Silat systems much more so.By the by, ever notice how some Pentjak Silat seem to attract TC guys? Lou-what you mean by "harder form"? You mean the solo form,due to its fast and explosive moves? Who is Lee? I mean his whole name.Sorry if you told me before. A lousy 5 standing minutes in p'eng? You'd be impressed w/2 minutes? Haw,haw! Seriously tho', you can easily and rapidly work up to as much time as you want without strain,even in single leg postures. Please send a postal money order for $100 to - Doc's Not So Secret Method for Extending ZZ Times That's ZZ Times,NOT ZZ Top.
Hi Doc. 1) As all MA is for me about creative movement and mobility - 'the artistic' aspect - I do still thrash around a fair bit - but nothing like in my youth and I am gradually winding things down - but as its still all possible, I still drink from the same vintage when I can - but not every day. At my regular class we have a retired banker and school headmaster who are quite happy with boxing drills and pads - and we do all the Silk Pyjamas stuff to - were not all lunies - just me. 2)What Im getting at here, is that Aikido in spite of various complications with politics and associated irrelevant fluff is still a reasonably objective system - even across different schools - its all ultimately Ueshiba Aikido. Now I just can't say the same with TCC! Due to my travels and work, I have to take in TCC with different teachers (16 in nearly 4 years) and every one has a different slant. Then there are subtleties in the applications e.g. double seize-leg, single seize-leg as part of step up raise hands followed by white crane flaps its wings - and this could well different within other families/styles/teaching - Im only quoting from the long Wu hand-form that is part of Wudang TCC. In our system, we have an evasion side step and counter rotation push drll called 9 palace - I don't think it exists in other styles. Then there will be aspects in other styles that don't exist in Wudang. What I am saying is that one has to make the most out of what one experiences - but for me its not objective - its just my interpretation. 3) One of my French teachers Patrice Becker is half Indonesian, and has done serious time in Pentjak Silat (another huge famiy of possibilities that I know nothing about), and he is a very interesting fellow to work with, full of tricks and ideas. Last night I made contact with a small group of local Cheng Pakua dudes and hope to be joining them when I can.
