The "no-sceptics" chi thread

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by CosmicFish, Aug 20, 2011.

  1. CosmicFish

    CosmicFish Aleprechaunist

    OK folks, we've had some requests that there be a thread for people to discuss chi without it being criticised by sceptics. We've had a quick chat about it on the mod forum and decided to give it a try. So here it is, and there are some rules:

    * This thread is for people who believe in chi to discuss it with each other.
    * It's also for those who are curious to hear about the beliefs of those who do believe in it.
    * I'm going to request that the sceptics keep their scepticism off this thread. There are currently two other chi threads running in which the sceptics have already put their position very well, and can continue to do so.

    I'm hoping we can all respect these rules and put our posts in the appropriate places. However, fair warning: any sceptical posts that end up on this thread will be deleted. :)
     
  2. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    thought: this should not be in the tai chi section. the "chi" in tai chi is a different term. in pinyin romanization it's "taiji" and "qi", although they are homophones, at least to my untrained ear.
     
  3. embra

    embra Valued Member

    I sit somewhere between the believers and sceptics - or maybe at an orthogonal angle to both.

    Unfortunately almost no-one here talks about 'Chi' being a term used by the ancient Taoists (in China circa 1400 or so) to describe fluid mobile human energy as an observed phenomena of experience covering the rudiments of what is now termed 'TaiChiChuan' varying from slow meditative movement to high speed multiple attacker weapon oriented tactical combat. Personally I 'believe' that 'Chi' is nothing more than that i.e. essentially controlled discharge of adrenalin.

    The discussions ranging from quasi-religious belief to 'show the scientific proof' all seem to miss this point, FWIW.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2011
  4. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    I don't really have a problem with the sceptics.Provided you are secure in your practice people's opinions won't upset you.

    *gets back to the serious practice of bone marrow breathing and brain washing qigong*
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2011
  5. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    Before I begin, I'd like to thank the MAP admin for this gracious gesture!

    Fwiw, as someone who has probably been identified with "believing in Qi" group, I'd like to make my position clear.

    Like Embra, I refer to the Taoist frame of reference when I think of Qi (e.g. as detailed in "Taoist Yoga" by Lu K'uan Yu representative of an ancient sacred practice) and not to the apparent delusions often presented as being to represent Qi. I don't personally have the experience that I can identify as Qi under this (or any) framework.

    Having said that, I draw parallels to 'tenaga dalam' which among the predominantly Hokkien of my friends in Java is often used interchangeably with the Qi terminology.

    Tenaga dalam means 'inner strength' or 'inner power' and generally is used to describe the result of specific types of training that range from a reliance on magic (subjective tending on the fantastical) to the reliance to breathing and movement (objective tending on the mundane).

    Silat being what it is, there is usually a strong spiritual component to these practices ... not necessarily religious. The spirituality usually has a strong leaning to an animistic past.

    So my stance is that I respect different world views and appreciate how meaning can be constructed, while living and practicing only that which I can personally experience for myself. When I feel the need, I tend to favour the modern holistic research (physical as well as psychological) to explain for myself the phenomenon of actual and natural experience.

    I don't generally have a problem with belief systems as long as they don't harm other people according to my personal perception and meaning of what constitutes harm. This definition is fluid and changeable according to my subjective state at the time, which can make it appear inconsistent, but makes perfect sense to me!

    I look forward to hearing from those more knowledgeable!
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2011
  6. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    One man I've read about in the west who is familiar with both paradigms (maybe), is Bruce Frantzis.

    "Since 1961, Bruce Frantzis has followed the 3,000-year-old Taoist tradition of warrior/healer/priest by studying, practicing, teaching and writing about energy arts including: qigong; energetic healing therapies; Taoist meditation; and martial arts, including tai chi. The heart of his tradition is the cultivation of chi, the internal energy that connects the mind, body and spirit to the underlying consciousness of the universe (Tao)."

    He talks about Qi as something tangible that can be personally felt and observed as energy.

    So, from the West's only Taoist lineage holder (as per the original text), we can conclude that "... the cultivation of chi, (is) the internal energy that connects the mind, body and spirit to the underlying consciousness of the universe (Tao)."

    It's almost able to substitute with the concept of 'love' in the biblical sense. " ... love ... (is) the internal energy that connects the mind, body and spirit to the underlying consciousness of the universe (Tao)." Hehe ... I'm sure this will get plenty of laughs ... however I've read that the founder of Aikido often talked about this quality ... so maybe the concept is not so far removed after all?

    "... mind, body and spirit...". Yet only the physical attributes (size, girth, weight, mass, volume etc.) and expressions of the body (force) can truly be measured using the methods of Newtonian science.

    So ... maybe that Qi is being able to summon the body, mind, spirit to experience and express a peak experience or peak performance? Much like a religious believer may induce states of rapture?
    Corollary to rapture here, is when a person has taken ice? I tried to hold/apprehend a woman once (I was working security at the time) who had tripped on ice, and it ended up needing three of us to control her. She was a lot stronger than I would say she would be under normal situations.

    Finally, I think the old Taoists and the Yogi's have found and mapped their ways so that they can reproduce the effects in their teaching traditions. I suspect where it often falls foul is when charlatans mistake the base meaning and attach unrealistic qualities to it ... ?
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2011
  7. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on


    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqEIRxztJZI&playnext=1&list=PL86DE91F6420DC105"]Two crazy women run out on British freeway / motorway then fight cops ! - YouTube[/ame]
     
  8. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Well okay,but as I've mentioned in another thread that definition of ch'i means that good HI/PK/TC practitioners are lacking in the ch'i department- for practitioners of those systems there shouldn't be any higher levels of adrenaline occuring while in combat than when dusting the furniture. If there is,some of your stuff won't work. It's not a matter of controlling it, it's just not supposed to arise. (Please note underline!)

    Not that that definition is per say a bad one- just another one of many.

    I don't think adrenaline or control thereof figured into the equation when my Tung teacher and I "played" the first time-while not the first time there was contact between us it was the first time we had touched with personVperson intent-we touched forearms,he looked at me w/mild surprise and said "Oh,you have much more ch'i than I do!"

    whatever exactly that meant.Very obviously not the same definition as yours.

    Which underlines,for the sake of this thread,that if there's going to be a discussion you're all going to have to agree on just what
    definition(s)/applications of the term ch'i your speaking of,lest there are 1500 different discussions going on in one thread.


    An aside-----1400-not considered ancient,y'know. Do we have any evidence that Taoists of that period of whatever stripe were commonly using the term to describe "fluid mobile human energy etc etc"? Since there's no actual known connection re:descent of teachings to TC from Taoism,other than Taoism being a prevailing aspect of the culture.Much as the oft heard claims of integration of Taoist "yoga" into TCC are mouthed/written no one can actually even say where the nei-gungs come from.Had to ask,tho' that's all discussion for another thread.
     
  9. embra

    embra Valued Member

    'Controlled' may not be the best term - but I cant find a better simple term - it may come in time. 'Adrenaline' - not necessarily as in its bio-chemical definition - more along the lines of 'expression of energy distribution and exchange' i.e. the propagation of energy in PH is essentially creative. Still doesn't mean this (or any other) definition is 'correct' - this one is just my personal expression.

    Hmmm, was your Tung teacher's 1st language English or Chinese? Semantic and Cultural interpretation complicate an allready abstract concept, but I understand what (I think) what you are getting at. In PH, energy discharge (adrenalin - or if you want - controlled/fullyfluid/or similar) is an ebb and flow of energy or 'Chi' if one wishes - I prefer energy - but even that doesn't fully explain the PH play/exchange in tangible English.

    As this is the nearest to a sensible discussion on Chi/Ki on MAP that I can recall, this is a highly valid point - the interpretation is almost impossible to define in objective terms - such is the personal nature of experience - in internal Nejia MA in this context - and somewhat more definitively as manifest in TCC.

    No evidence whatsoever! - merely a gross interpretation wrapping up centuries of cultural context, abscence of real science in those times vs advance of western science, many TCC classics texts - as a means of gross simplification - in relatively simple language.

    Origins of Neigung - now that would be a REALLY, REALLY interesting thread topic - I practise Neigung but rarely Qi Gong as I simply dont have the time to do both on a more or less daily basis (average 5-10 mins per day.)

    Suggestions:-
    a) origins of Neigung, relationships to DaoYin and Qi Gong
    b) Neigung absorption into TCC, Bagua, Xing Yi - and other minority internal Nejia arts
    c) which families/schools/teachers of the above arts still continue these Neigung practises
    d) others ....
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2011
  10. embra

    embra Valued Member

    I'll try this:-

    Chi == an expression of creative energy in exchange with others' energies.
     
  11. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned

    Ch'i = the underlying substratum expressing itself as the interplay of potentialities within and behind subatomic particles. The most subtle essense of life itself manifesting as a paradox of the Tao....! The causality of causality, the effect of the interplay of opposite forces, that of matter which has trancended both matter, particle, and root. The conciousness which lies behind ego but rests upon Tao! Vibration without vibration, "thought" that "is" "no thought", the substructuring of all chemicals inside and outside of the body. :cool:
     
  12. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    The tao is not a paradox. It is right there in front of you. To use an al-anon slogan, let go and let god ( or nature or the universe or whatever). Give up the illusion of control and it is a easy to see as a freeway. Once you have given up the illusion of control simply be in the moment. Mindfulness is a tool that can help get you there. :hat:
     
  13. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned

    I say the Tao is a great paradox because though it is nothing, this nothing can be perceived and so has a kind of existance.

    Kind of like black holes, huh?
     
  14. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    The tao is not nothing. You just can't use words to describe the tao, that's all and that's enough.
     
  15. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned

    Exactly... it's "not-nothing".... used almost like a double negative..... that's what makes it so paradoxical! by being empty, you get filled.... but if you're full, you must be emptied to restore usefulness. Thus the full, not full, and usefullness is tao.

    to speak of tao the words seem empty. thus, these words are also, also tao.
     
  16. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    it's one of those words that is contextual. IOW it can apply to multiple contexts therefore to give it meaning requires contextualization.

    the common theme, as far as I can tell is energy. The form or process can be whatever one applies it too.

    In reading descriptions of martial arts. My interperatation has been that it often described a body-mind kinesthetic feeling.

    Whether Alechemic Taoist took it deeper and linked it to something that's description is close to adrenaline - I think is somewhat of a red herring.
     
  17. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Both the context and associated meaning need to be described in simple tangible language - otherwise paradoxical word-play gets flowered around with and/or conventional science arguments quickly make the rationality very thin.
     
  18. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    Nope, no paradox. Your thinking way to hard. You are using a lot of words to describe a thing that precedes words.

    Where do your thoughts come from? You don't choose to think them, they arise on their own. That source is tao, it is the point where awareness exists but the words haven't attached themselves to it. The awareness is there, always ways. So, no paradox.

    Words describe, awareness is.

    Best I can do right now. :hat:
     
  19. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned

    And as awareness is a manifestation of the tao, words are a manifestation of awareness. Where there are no words, there is no awareness. No awareness? Only tao.... no tao? Only tacos... mmmmm..... tacos.....
     
  20. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    You can have awareness without words, awareness precedes words.

    Think of awareness as the movie and words as the narration. If you shut your eyes and focus on the narration you will miss the movie.

    Tacos are a major part of the tao.


    As my zen master said to me. "All your bases are belong to us! HAHAHHAHAHAHA!" I achieved enlightenment soon after, grasshopper.
     

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