Most boxers are taught to punch badly?

Well that's what this fella says in this vid:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdPP0TmqKiU&feature=player_embedded"]Michael Jai White and Kimbo Slice extended version - YouTube[/ame]

Wasn't sure if this belonged in boxing, kung fu (hey WC guys this guy punches sorta like you do) or here as striking is, for the most part universal to most non-grappling arts.

Thoughts??

LFD

 

This is a great video LateForDinner, thank you for sharing it.


Osu!

 

Bas Rutten covers the subject too, and he breaks spleens.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LEQJtWap0M"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LEQJtWap0M[/ame]

When you are wearing gloves and wraps then the factor of potentially braking your fist is taken out of equation. Its when you take them off it really matters how you punch, there's nothing really there to brace the impact (no padding) so technique matters. If there is one thing that Goju Ryu Karate taught me how to do was to punch with a straight wrist and good form, this translated nicely over to Boxing. My trainers in Boxing, one of the first things they taught me was how not to telegraph my movements before throwing the punch. Lunging forward before throwing the punch is what your opponent is going to read, same goes for when you have your elbows out, its easier to read whats coming. MJW pretty much nailed it on the head.

Good video!

 

depends on who's teaching the boxing skills. the guy that helped me out a bit with the heavy bags at the gym insisted on essentially karate-style fist movement when punching the bag (striking with index and middle knuckles, fully rotating the fist, only difference was the shoulder action, basically).

 

Does it matter that I think Kimbo would destroy Jai White in a proper go?

 

Oh it matters. That struck me too. I love Michael Jai White. And I think he's one of the most credible martial arts stars there are. But yeah, I was thinking "er, Kimbo's been down this path a few times." Watching him on the Ultimate Fighter, it's clear that Kimbo has a fair amount to learn. But about boxing in particular, he's no rube.

None of which is to say that what MJW is saying is actually false. I think he's right. Part of me always rebels, though, when I see someone standing there lecturing to a throng of people about martial arts. It's difficult to do in a way that doesn't make me roll my eyes a bit. (Hell, I even roll my eyes when I do it.)

 

I don't think that anyone is taught to throw a punch that flares at the elbow, it's just that some people do because they aren't watched enough in drilling.

Also, you don't have to hit with the fist vertical in order to not flaring the elbow.

 

What struck me was that they were judging the punch purely on speed, deception and whether it hit the target. And as we know that's only part of the story. There's a good reason boxers put some shoulder into their punches. It's because it you don't the other guy will walk through them whether they tag him in the fizzog or not.
You can make a punch harder by winding up and lunging in. But the other guy will see it and counter.
You can make a punch fast and harder to avoid by just using the arm but it'll have less effect when it does land.
Somewhere between is a compromise that is both fast, deceptive AND hard and I don't think MJW was throwing that sort of punch IMHO.

 

Also, lifting your shoulder in a punch can protect your chin from a counter or getting caught when going in.

 

any decent boxing coach will tell you you need to pop the shoulder behind the punch to get power, reach and protect the chin. What they will make a point of doing is making sure that you're moving the hand first and not the shoulder which is what a lot of people do at a low level of punching ability.

 

It's all fine for either of this lot to run on about how boxers 'punch wrong' etc. Flat facts are either of them in their weight class in pro and possibly amatuer boxing would have their clocks well cleaned.

There are guys who weigh much less than Kimbo slice that can out punch him any day of the week. And frankly... what is Michael Jai White's boxing credentials? I don't expect they're going to be all that. Oh wait that's right... his thing is Wushu and several other styles... boxing doesn't seem to be on the list.

Give me James Toney, Hopkins, Hagler or Sugar Ray Robinson talking boxing and then I'm inclined to listen... but this... puhleeeze.

Not that I dislike either of these guys I don't. Always liked more or less Kimbo... entertaining street fighter. White... meh... action movie pretty boy. Fine for what they are... but let's drop some reality here... he's not a boxer.

 

This. MJW is making a straight up strawman argument here.

 

Most boxers are taught to punch badly?


I think this thread belongs in the "Big Fat Lies" section.

It's gotta be a tongue in cheek statement, right?

 

this, and kimbo seems a nice guy, most fighters would have asked him to glove up so they can see what he means........

 

MJW is confusing speed with power. Sure, not popping the shoulder might disguise it a little, but how much power is he giving up? Good boxers are fast enough that they can pop the shoulder with all the extra power it generates and still get the fist to the chin before the other guy can react.

 

i dont think he is totally wrong i would say he is using a different philosophy on punching and there are many of them out there. but what im tryna say is it looks a lot like WC just like LFD said so do i think it would work, but against an opponent who maybe isnt that great of a fighter. because also mentioned above a boxer has enough speed to still get his shoulders in the punch for power and hit you before you move. that being said a muay thai fighter uses the shoulder to cover and those two martial arts have been proven in combat sports to be effective. so i think his theory does work but not in the situation a boxer or a MT fighter would need it to

 

he is making a completely valid point in terms of the technique he's espousing. He just has like half the point. Kimbo probably does the same thing but doesn't realise he does it.

As for the bullcrap about "how a boxer or MT fighter would need it" just shut up and don't start this into a tired old "but WC and ninurjitsu punches are just as effective they're just different" kind of conversation. Keep it out of this thread.

MJW's right in a way, but I think he's probably been told something by a decent boxer and only really understood some of it or only heard the parts of it that he, as a typical TMA type guy wants to hear.

Yes, many people flare the elbow when they throw a punch. YES this is bad technique but NO they do NOT get taught that. It's simply one of the phases people tend to go through when they've still not properly learned to punch.

Yes, the hand should be the first part to move but also contrary to what he seems to be goin on about, the shoulder SHOULD pop

End of the day he comes off as a typical TMA jackass with a big mouth blabbin off in front of guys who've actually been there and done it. Anyone who's spent any sort of time in a decent fight gym sees people like that come through the door every once in a while and you just learn to ignore them.

Besides, kimbo probably didnt challenge it because this was on the set of one of MJW's movies in which he was basically kimbo's boss case solved.

 

It reminded me of JKD a bit.

I think what was in the video would work against anyone, even against good boxers. It is basically not telegraphing your intentions by staying upright and not leaning forward before the punch hits.

Any power loss might not be noticable for most people.

What might be of consideration also is that of repeated striking. Doing what was in the video could actually slow down your ability to throw multiple strikes. I think that might be one of the disadvantages to it. Have to think about it more.

 

As for the bullcrap about "how a boxer or MT fighter would need it" just shut up and don't start this into a tired old "but WC and ninurjitsu punches are just as effective they're just different" kind of conversation. Keep it out of this thread.


HAHAHAHAHA that was not the point to what i posted i aim to always be respectful of other people and their respective arts so if i offended anyone let me be the first to say im sorry. and what i realized i left out of my post or shall i say what i worded wrong but meant to say was it is a valid point but MAYBE a Mixed Martial artist or boxer or MT fighter wouldnt employ it EXACTLY as he did but adjust it to fit to how he fights after all you did say he is a Typical TMA jackass with a big mouth blabbin off in front of guys who have been there and done it and most TMA Have a SD element and its about defending your self on the street so my above comment about fight a not so great fighter is because i would like to think a decent martial artist is a better fighter than the average joe on the street, so once again never meant to tick anyone off but its all good, no love lost LOL

MB i have no problem with ya brother, i enjoy reading some of your post but please refrain from telling me to shut up i didnt want/mean to start a keyboard fight with anyone on this board after all it is just my opinion thanks bro

 

if this would work against good boxers then why doesnt MJW stop making some of the worst martial arts movies the world's ever seen and make some serious money as a world champion pro boxer?

I know the answer.