How Fast is Fast (roundhouse kicks)

Some people have been following Master Betty's thread in the Thai boxing section called "fastest kicks"

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101877

Betty said he thought that they were the fastest kicks he had ever seen (real kicks)...I'll post a few quotes from the thread

This is the original video:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxohGorwwGg"]YouTube - ‪REAL KICK MACHINE!!!! Sarm-A wanna say something to Kongsak!!!‬‏[/ame]

I'd like to point out I thought this was in general martial arts disc. not in the M.T. subforum, I likely wouldn't have been so obviously pro-tkd if this was the case, as people like to do their own thing in their sub-forums.

So naturally as everyone hates TKD no one believed me that anyone could kick faster than this guy...

Again I wish to note that my original post claimed people kicked fast with power. Not necessarily as hard as this superman in the video, but faster. I looked around and couldn't find a video to support this online...sooo!

So the thread basically turns into your classic TKD sucks for "x" reasons thread, and we have had enough of them so I wont play quote for quote with any of that. If you want to discuss that topic, do it in that particular thread please.

There is some interesting back and forth and I would encourage people to read the thread.

But basically I went and hit the pads after my AM training session earlier this week with a partner of mine. And just did what the original video guy did.

Here are the videos.

Here is my first attempt, right leg roundhouse kicks

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S1ttWZaIAE"]YouTube - ‪Right Leg Continuous Kicks- Fast?‬‏[/ame]

I tried on the left leg as well

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdrS9gHHLvI"]YouTube - ‪Left Leg Continuous Kicks- Not as Fast?‬‏[/ame]

My partner also had a go, his kicks are less powerfull, but the speed is very good.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHgHYCQuF4M"]YouTube - ‪Other Guy Right Leg Continuous Kicks- Fast?‬‏[/ame]

So based on these video's and firsthand doing the drill I'd like to throw a few feelings, thoughts and observations out.

1) The drill: I felt uncomfortable doing this drill. We don't use these pads normally in our training and I have never EVER done this drill on our "thai style" pads which we use for a different purpose.

In the left leg video I stopped because my pad holder was moving in an awkward angle and I couldnt keep up with it.

In the original thai video this guy seems to follow quite easy. He (in my opinion) is obviously quite experienced doing this drill.

It's obvious watching that I'm not as fast as the other guy, however I have absolutely no doubt that If I trained this drill 2-6 times a week for the next 8 week cycle of my training I WOULD be kicking faster than the thai guy.

I will NOT be doing this however, regardless of the flames from MAP members. purely because I have so much other stuff to focus on.

Another observation, it is hard to maintain the same level of power and speed the whole time. Doing the drill gives me even more respect than I already had for both the fighter who did these drills and some elite TKD fighters who I had watched do speed drills just as well.

2) Power

I didn't kick as hard as the Thai guy.

(sarcasm intended)

BIG SURPRISE

Everyone knows that the Thai Roundhouse hits harder than an instep kick.
That being said, I think the roundhouse kicks I threw were pretty hard, look at the way they make the pad holders arms move, and the impact (I'm aware he is likely not holding the pad properly).

Way I look at it is this.

Getting shot by a little 9mm vs a mighty 303 is better, but I still don't want to get shot!

My kicks are pretty hard, and they work under my rule set. If I hit you in the ribs with one, its going to HURT.

3) Speed

As is clear from a comparison of the videos the Thai boxer is faster, Though I feel I could get that fast with a moderate amount of effort.

I do however think given the way that this kick is being thrown on these pads that the MT roundhouse has a speed advantage. The kick has less distance to travel because the pad holder is closer. I'm not sure I'm putting this point forwards as well as I could, its late and I have a big wall of text.

Final thoughts.

I'm aware taekwondo gets a bad reputation and I respect that. In some scenarios its entirely fair to pay it out.

That being said its a very difficult SPORT to succeed at. There are some very good athletes out there.

I'm not the best- when I said I had seen people kick faster than the original video guy, I was not talking about myself. There are fighters out there who are much faster and more powerful than me.

I also cannot film them! Thats why I had to resort to my own kicks as evidence that TKD people can come VERY CLOSE to that level of speed.

Just to show how the attributes of speed power flexibility etc come together in TKD comps, I'm going to post an exert from a fight I had 2 weeks ago.

Theres a few interesting points here.

The first is how later in the clip I use the repeated roundhouse to the body to score a good point.

the second is that people often criticise the "non contact nature" of TKD and I think this clip shows that WTF comps at a higher level are far from that.

There is obvious speed and power.

At least if I failed at hitting the pads fast against the MT guy I can show that I have some skill

This is the video- I'm in red.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE35thW2cBw"]YouTube - ‪Round 3-‬‏[/ame]


Assuming you read/watched all of this.

I'm open to discussing everything I've posted. But I wont react very well to any outright hostility. Please don't turn this discussion into another "all the reasons TKD sucks" thread...thats not what its about.

 

That's just slapping the pad dude. You've just proved their point

Have to say props for posting x

 

Liero, massive respect for putting a video up fella!!! I think it was a good attempt all I'll say is as you have mentioned the training methods of both styles are apparent which you have already stated but I think it was a really good effort in comparison!

I think however if you was to compare both styles you should have been landing with your shin and twisting the hip a little bit more, like I said I'm not taking anything away from you but I can see thats where the argument is going to head...

 

Yeah. Liero, no disrespect intended, I'm genuinely thankful you had the go and had the balls to post the video but those kicks are slaps. I hit harder than that when I'm emphasising technique over power. When I go all out I hit much much harder than that.

yeah, they're fast, but those are not REAL kicks. Minimal hip rotation, flicking from the quads and hitting with the foot.

 

Hey Liero, there are some universal laws of nature that can never be broken. Impossible to create energy from nothing. Impossible to be in two places at once. Impossible to ever hear Master Betty admit that anything is better than muay Thai at anything.

Trying to break these laws is like pouring effort into a black hole. I think an easier, happier life can be had by not trying to break these laws, but accepting them as givens.

 

So you're saying you consider those kicks hard?

 

I didn't mention the kicks.

 

Moosey that's just a simple troll comment and nothing else. If you actually consider those kicks hard then you NEED to get yourself along somewhere decent and learn some real striking.

Seriously, the video Liero has put up and the comments you've just made have done nothing but prove the very point I made with my initial offhand remark about "real" kicks.

And I don't care what effect those kicks have on someone who's trained for that same ruleset. If someone kicked me with one of those kicks in the ring I'd walk right through it and kick the living daylights out of him - because I'm used to getting hit with real power behind virtually every shot.

 

Liero, props for posting it, but it's pretty much exactly what all the FC guys were talking about. You sacrifice so much power to kick at that speed that the strike becomes functionally useless. Great for TKD comps, but it's not going to hurt anyone committed except by fluke.

For the record I rather like TKD, but I do see some serious problems with it when you start comparing it to other arts. The training methods and application simply do not lend themselves to much other than TKD and similar point-stop sparring competitions.

 

I think you're reading a bit too much into it.

I just meant that he's wasting his time trying to convince you that TKD can ever be better than MT. It's not going to happen as you're probably the biggest MT advocate here and most vociferously anti-TKD.

That's all. I have no opinion on the matter, really. It was just a bit of flippancy rather than trolling.

 

I agree that he's never going to convince me. That's got nothing to do with me being stubbornly ignorant nor him not having enough convincing arguments. Its got to do with results. If you (and you did bring up muay thai v tkd first) want to see which art is producing fighters its simple maths. You just count up how many full contact strikers in comprehensive rulesets use tkd and how many use muay thai. And more importantly, you want to check out the guys at the top of the game. Law of probability says numbers are already on TKDs side so they have a massive advantage to begin with.

To this day I've seen nothing but thai boxers being far superior to virtually every other strikers on the planet in most situations of cross competition.

 

I think the summary is this: the thai boxer is still a good deal faster and whilst he still sacrifices some technique and power in return for speed, he's hitting so much harder it really makes any argument null and void. However, if there's one benefit to come out of this then I think I'm going to have a go myself and show what I can do because I honestly don't even know if I could do it at the moment. I'm 12kg over my fighting weight and haven't trained seriously or regularly since I moved to germany in september.

 

Big props for posting, been v interested since you first mentioned this

Clearly the first time you've attempted that kind of drill (which surprises me, I had thought that repeating roundhouses are v. much par for the course for competition TKD? Like that crazy manoeuvre where someone dances on the spot launching left/right roundhouse at 2-3/sec)

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSFBjdb40M0"]YouTube - ‪fast kicks‬‏[/ame]

Would be interesting to see how your speed develops with practice.

I would suggest getting the pad better held. A solid strike against that will push his arm out of the way and stop you returning the leg quickly. To get speed here you would be forced to slow your own leg at impact.

Also, striking a point 0degrees in front of you, kicks could be harder and much faster if the pad was mebbe 15 deg to your right.


PS. Pre-teen in the vid has the fastest kicks by far - does he win?

 

I agree with d0ugbug regarding the comparison of styles affecting the way the kick is thrown.

The way a TKD roundhouse is used in competition is that its the cut and dry percentage shot "point scoring" technique. Scoring a point with it is more about speed, distance and timing than power. But it still has to hit sufficiently hard to score. Thats not to say that it has to hit as hard as a full MT roundhouse kick with the shin.

Any kick has to hit with the area under the ankle...i.e. no shin kicks. This is even more important nowadays with the way sensors work for the electronic system. Furthermore, the distance from which the MT kick is thrown is slight vulnerability in terms of the other person being able to get a quick counter. I'm aware of the "impracticality" under other rule sets this is- I'm also aware that it's one of the criticisms that make people liken TKD to a game of tag.

I would consider the turning kick to be very much like the way a lot of boxers/fighters throw a jab. To set other big shots up. You can win a fight with nothing but good jab's but it's going to be a pretty boring fight.

I'm going to make the quick tangent on this point and point out, for pretty much the 100000000000th time that I ENJOY TKD COMPETITION, that's why I train in it and thats what I practice. I'm under no illusions about the amount of additional work that would be required to change my style if I took a step into the MMA or kickboxing field. This is obviously going to be reflected in my techniques.

In response to these, and a few other posts. The goal of the drill was to kick as fast as possible, there was always going to be less power in the kicks than if that was what I was focusing on power. I can hit harder than that. But again I'm under no illusions about the power differences in my kicks to that of a professional thai boxer.

THAT BEING SAID

I think your underestimating the power of my kicks a little bit. In this video there isn't a great deal of hip turn into the shot, which is related to the speed increase necessary for the drill and also I'll admit its something I can work on. However while they are "slappy" kicks, if someone got hit in the same spot a few times, lets say in the ribs...It would have a genuine impact on a fight.

The reason I did this initially was to see if I was faster than the MT guy. I was not. And I told everyone in the other thread. A few people still said they wanted to see the videos so I put them up...so lets not flame me too much :hat:

The other thing regarding power...As I mentioned above, the TKD roundhouse is used in a different way than the MT roundhouse, its a point scoring technique- Its not my power shot. I have a VERY powerful jump spin back kick. My head shots are pretty hard as well. If I had to go for a K.O. in a comp- the body roundhouse is not my point of call. And its pretty rare (though it has happened) to see someone finish a fight with a roundhouse to the body.

*off topic a little* one time it did happen was because the guy who was being kicked tried to block the kick and it broke his arm. Try telling that guy theres no power in a TKD roundhouse :S

We do drills like that video. I could easily throw consecutive kicks faster and harder than the guy in the video you posted. If I did that style of kicking the number of kicks in about 25 seconds would be well over the MT clip. The reason I didnt film any of that is because I was trying to imitate the same conditions as the MT clip. the kicks you posted are very different.

The reason I dont train "how many roundhouse kicks can I do in 25 seconds" is because there isnt a point in a TKD fight where I would need to do that. 2-3 roundhouses maybe, but thats all- Though in terms of fitness and willpower I might add it in as a finisher at the end of a session.

I agree about the development. I'm nowhere near my peak in terms of speed, strength or skill. A good pad holder would help as well. I wish I knew someone who could hold thai pads well that could teach me the finer points of pad holding- but I dont. And even then I would be stuck with somone else holding badly and me holding well

Another issue is that those particular pads are quite thin, when we use them people complain because you can feel every kick go straight through them- if you watch the video with the other guy, you can see he is wearing an arm pad, he wanted that much more protection from the impact when he was holding- A bit wimpy I know

When you refer to the preteen, are you talking about the video where I'm holding the pads?

Also, will you post your attempt at this up Betty?

 

This post by Ratty on the original thread says it all.

In light of this liero's original comment in that thread was needless.

End of.

 

No, sorry that must have looked quite weird.... I had a video in my post demonstrating the alternate leg roundhouse dance I described earlier. 33 kicks in 10sec or something

Some mod must have gone in and removed it. WTF guys?

 

Liero, I can't see the link!!

 

neither can i.... hacker problem???

 

'sup, we're not stealing people's youtube videos. There's a bit of a techy problem at the moment. One of the hamsters that runs in the wheel powering the MAP server has gone on strike for better pay and conditions. We're just trying to tempt it with a bit of carrot and normal service should hopefully resume.