To satisfy my own curiousity, last week I taught a blend of Combat Hapkido and Sin Moo Hapkido and the results were educational to say the least. Not once did my students challenge what was being taught and when I asked them if they saw anything different, from my highest ranking BB to the sole white belt, the answers were the same. "No we didn't see a remarkable difference." The only real difference may have been the finsihing of the technique, But other than that I think we proved that regadless of what flavor your hapkido is, hapkido is still hapkido. Master Bob Ingersoll 6th Dan Combat Hapkido 4th Dan Sin Moo Hapkido (old Pacific Grove, CA dojang)
Master Bob, By any chance do you know Joseph John. He was my instructor back in chicago. His instructrors name was Master Bob I believer Ingersoll but am not completely sure.
Master Bob,it is Great to have a Person with your experiences on this board,and in Combat Hapkido. I fully agree with your conclusion.(Reagrdless of Flavor Hapkido is Hapkido) From my experience and from what I have seen and heard from others who have backgrounds in various (traditional) forms of Hapkido,Combat hapkido is not so different. One question: With Your Experience and rank in both traditional as well as Combat Hapkido what do you (not your students who enjoy your teachings) feel/think is the differences (if any) between Sin Moo Hapkido and Combat Hapkido. Sorry to put you on the spot. (your rank in both give you credibility and make you an Authority)
Greetings, To me this does'nt sound like an unbias comparison just because you pride your self as a proponent of CH not Sin Moo. 1. Sin Moo has many Kicks and jump Kicks, CH claims no high kicks 2. Sin Moo has many throws CH claims no high type throws 3. Sin Moo has Ki developement & Philosophy not found in CH 4. Sin Moo teaches more weapons (sword, 6ft staff, etc.) than CH 5. Plus many many stylistic nuances you can't really list. These are pretty big differences not small ones IMO. To do such a test get a pure Sin Moo Master and a Pure CH Master to teach a seminar together and then have a neutral party list the differences or have a demonstration of the two systems side by side.
Greetings Sorry to butt in Jim but, Sin Moo is original Korean HKD technically with additional philosphy added by Doju Ji so the differences from CH should be obvious to you.
American HKD: Thought my post would get a rise out of you. But being a first generation student of GM Ji, I am fully aware what is involved in Sin Moo Hapkido, but after learning the mainstay of Sin Moo Hapkido, I derive more enjoyment from Combat Hapkido. My students include police officers, security personnel, military personnel, who don't give a damn about the traditional side of a martial art, but what's going to save their ass when the going gets tough. Currently I have military students seving in Iraq. Do you think for one minute the enemy cares about what's traditional and what's not!!!! I've seen both sides of the road, and for me Combat Hapkido fills my void. If you think there needs to be an independent test, how about you coming out to California and you make your presentation of Sin Moo Hapkido, and I'll make the argument for Combat Hapkido. Sound fair enough? You seem to always find fault with post that even mention the words Combat Hapkido. You sound like a very unhappy person Stuart. Cheer up. Combat Hapkido is here to stay, regardless of what you may think of those who made the choice to jump the traditional ship. As aways, Yours in the martial arts; Master Bob Ingersoll
bvermillon: Small world my friend. Joe John is not only one of my Black Belts, but also a good friend. He's in San Diego now and we have been in touch. I am going to host him to do a Haganah seminar for my students. Good luck with your training............ Master Bob Ingersoll Self Defense America CA State Director / VP ICHF West Coast Director / IPDTI
American HKD, The question was asked,not to put Master Bob on the spot or draw him into any debate with anyone on this board. My question was not written to draw an answer for me ,but for the many who see and read these pages that are new to Hapkido, or who maybe interested in hapkido in some form. The more informed people are from those who have a substantial knowledge,the better we all are in helping them. Master Bob has vast experience in both forms,so he has the knowledge to make and compare the two ,and better educate the readers. As I have said before I disagree with the generalities,such as: CH has no high kicks:we do have high kicks but the stress of the teachings are to make actual kicks on the street low. CH has no throws,High throws: we do have high throws but again the emphasis is on the functional use on the street and High throws are not a pratical use technique on the street. We do use Ki , Breath control and Ki strikes,we do not spend much time doing Breathing exercises to enhance this,so this. We do not work much with the sword or staff,but this would be dependent upon the school.
JimH: Thanks for the kind words. Since I was a first generation student of GM Ji, Sin Moo Hapkido was all that I was exposed to for many years. When I found myself looking at other forms of Hapkido, I researched Combat Hapkido when it was in it's early stages. Because of my background in Law Enforcement and during my assignments as a Defensive Tactics Instructor, I was looking to find a self defense system that avoided the traditional aspect, and focused on the reality of a defending yourself. This is what lead me to GM Pellegrin and Combat Hapkido. It became quite clear that why teach a jump spinning hook kick to an officer who's wearing close to 20 pounds of equipment. So instead of trying to re-invent the wheel, I choose to train in Combat Hapkido. I will never forget my training in Sin Moo Hapkido, but times have changed and some instructors don't like change. I travel to South Korea every two years to visit and train with GM In Sun Seo. For the longest time we studied Kuk Sul Won. Was there a difference? Very little. Did it conflict with Sin Moo Hapkido and Combat Hapkido? Not one bit. In a country where we have the freedom to make choices and study the martial art that answers our needs, why should we care what the so-called "traditional" instructors think. After all, the last time I looked, I owned the school where I teach and I think that gives me the right to teach whatever flavor of Hapkido I choose to teach. Thanks again for your kind words and I'll keep posting whenever my busy schedule allows me the time. Master Bob Ingersoll
Sin Moo is original Korean HKD technically with additional philosphy added by Doju Ji so the differences from CH should be obvious to you. If you take some of the bite out of Sin Moo Hapkido, your still left with Hapkido. Whoever said Hapkido had to follow any philosphy or rules. I guess you've missed the whole point. I've studied Sin Moo Hapkido and now I don't. But does that give you the right to find fault with everyone who doesn't see things your way? I believe the forum is designed to exchage ideas, gain perspective on self defense, regardless of whether it's traditional or not. It's nonsense like this that wants me to avoid martial arts forums altogether. I spend 10 hours a day teaching self defense and would like to engage myself in some intelligent feed back, not constent critisim. Master Bob Ingersoll
Well at least HE actually knows what he's talking about when he compares the two. Not like others who have never taken CH and think just by reading magazines they can make a valid comparison. And fyi the definition of "bias": A preference or an inclination, especially one that inhibits impartial judgment. An unfair act or policy stemming from prejudice I see statements such as "I've seen both sides of the road, and for me Combat Hapkido fills my void." and "regadless of what flavor your hapkido is, hapkido is still hapkido". Where is the bias in those comments?
Greetings, Since you exspect a rise out of me and "I'm an unhappy person" as you say I'll try not you disapoint you here. The truth is I don't respect Master P. as a Hapkido Master in for many reasons way to lengthy to debate on this forum but feel free to call me to discuss anytime. In short as far as I'm concerned GM P bought his way up the ranks (very few become a 9th dan in 15-16 years even with real HKD training). He's not a very good HKD technician from watching his tapes and speaking to real hapkido players that I respect who attended his seminars. It's also a fact that he received his 1st Dan in 1989 from GM Mike Wollmehauser in Florida. Just for comparison I was going for my third dan at that time with a 1st dan (1983) and 2nd dan (1986) in Sin Moo already. Just for giggles GM P is my junior in the traditional sense. If GM P was on the order of some real HKD masters such as Ji Han Jae, HS Myung, JR West, Kim Jin Pal, Hal Whalen, Dr H Kim, Holcolm Thomas, Son Tae Soo, and many other very good american HKD masters too numerous to list and then he created a system we'd have something to respect. He is a great business man no doubt, he found a niche market for his system and went for it, and is doing a great job in that sense and I agree CH is here to stay! To many systems is all about feel good and political correctness not training and skill. I have a friend in NJ who was a purple belt in CH with a school charter in CH. How can a purple belt have a school charter? This guy finnally quit after 1 year believing CH was about the $$ not the skill. Of course that's only one guy out of many but a purple belt with a HKD school come on folks.
Please excuse the quick background but it might help to explain my response. I trained for 5 years in Sin Moo Hapkido and Yudo with GM John Beluschak where I received my 1st Dan in Sin Moo Hapkido. I then relocated due to a job change. After a few years of doing activities that involved the lifting or throwing of large heavy objects, I decided to get back into the Martial Arts. I found the CH school where Thomas trains and have been training there for a few months, (as well as a little bit of Jujitsu). Recently I was awarded a reconcilled 1st Dan in CH, but still feel I have a way to go before I know this system. OK now that that is over here are the differences as I see them. Most of which were noted before. Sin Moo has more emphasis on the kicking especially high kicks. (I was never any good with them anyway.) Sin Moo placed more emphasis on the spiritual side but that was really up to the individual student and you were never pushed into anything. Sin Moo placed more emphasis on falls, but that may have been a result of my teachers background in Yudo. There was more emphasis on high throws, which I do believe are very effective. There also seemed to be more emphasis on footwork. The curriculum in Sin Moo is structured differently and to me seems a bit more easy to follow but that could just be because it was what I learned first. CH seems to have more emphasis on striking and trapping. So far I have struggled with this and sometimes feel like one of the three stooges with my hands flapping in the air while I go "nyuk nyuk nyuk". Thank goodness Thomas is very patient. I also really like the compartmentalization of CH. As I mentioned before this will let me continue to work in my favorite areas and hopefully get the instructor credentials in that area. With this I can also learn from others who have worked in their favorite areas. The kicks are all low, which is OK with me because those are the only ones I can do. The other part is ...Black Uniforms...I know it's a trivial difference, but I just love the Black. I found a black judogi and I love it, next I'm getting a black Atama jujitsu gi (if my wife lets me). I really think by emphasizing the differences to some extent we are missing the most important point. Regardless of the style, to me what is important is that you find a teacher that you respect and a group of students that make your Martial Arts time both enjoyable and productive. I have found a great new school and am always welcome in my old school when I come "home" to visit. I have the best of both systems and don't want to look at them as seperate in any way.
As a student of Traditional Hapkido (IHF 2nd dan) and Combat Hapkido (3rd dan) and someone who has played around with/visited many schools, I wholeheartedly agree. For that matter, a couple of weeks ago I went with my instructor to an Aikido seminar and ended up with the same basic evaluation: the common elements of our art, as descended from Daito-ryu Aikijujitsu share the same concepts but the entries, techniques, and finishes vary slightly to greatly. Your personal feelings and beliefs are indeed your own. That you choose to insult a man that a lot of people here love and respect (and who is recognized by his peers for his accomplishments around the world) is distressing, sad, and wholely unneccessary. I follow Grandmaster John Pellegrini's advice to never put down another system or another martial artist. I imagine that the petty politics and backstabbing that is so common in many traditional korean arts was one of the main reasons why he left. Any visit to the various Hapkido forums shows that the pettiness and bickering is alive and well. The only advice I can give is to go to a seminar or Combat Hapkido school in person and experience it. GM Pellegrini comes through New Jersey often and the NJ state director is an amazing man named Master Frank Huff.... there are plenty of opportunities in your area to see CH in action and to work with the amazing instructors that we have. If you try it out first hand, participate, and ask questions but still don't respect it, no one can ask for any more. Absolutely! By the way, thank you for such kind words about the school! For us, it is a treasure having such a well trained black belt who steps into any room with an open mind and willingness to learn and share. We learn from you as well and love having you on board. See you at class! Disclaimer: I am by no means trying to moderate, erely expressing my views and opinions.
Greetings I don't know of any Traditional HKD school, be it Sin Moo or anyother that's MAKES anyone do something they phyiscally can't. If you can't jump or fall you there many other techniques you still can do!
Greetings, Thomas I always respect you, I think you know that but I feel what I'm saying is true not an insult per se. GM P record and history is out there and many people know the truth about it, and many others want to sweep it under the rug and pretend thier in lala land I can't do anything about that. If what I say is a false than I'm a misimformed liar and I'll apologise, if what I said happens to be true then it is not an insult but true facts.
As a student of a very old (Choi Young Sool, pre-Ji Han Jae) traditional form of Hapkido, I'd like to ask a couple of questions of the CH students here... 1. A couple of you have mentioned that the finishes for some CH techniques differ from the finishes in traditional Hapkido. Could any of you give a couple of examples of how? I think that's an interesting area for discussion. 2. I have never trained in CH, nor even been to a CH seminar, but my understanding from speaking with some CH guys who trained with us briefly, and from reading some CH material, has been that CH uses fewer techniques than most traditional styles, because the high kicks and many of the throws have been removed. However, a while back I borrowed an old CH tape from a friend (I believe it was made in 1992), with JP himself on it. The tape mentioned 217 techniques in the curriculum for first dan. That kind of surprised me - our traditional style, for example, has about 105 formal techniques to first dan, in addition to the various strikes, falls, etc. that we don't classify as "formal" techniques. I'm just curious about the number of techniques in CH... if anybody would care to comment, I'd appreciate it. Thanks folks...
Gents - can we please try to keep this constructive, as opposed to mud slinging!! Personnally, I'm intrigued by all the above posts as I'm based in the UK and have yet to see any Combat Hapkido - but I'd still like to have a look and make my own mind up. In my experience, I don't believe there are really any bad arts/styles - only bad instructors. I've been lucky enough to travel quite a lot with my job, which has let me train with a number of schools around the world and to be honest, they all teach and present their own particular 'brand' of Hapkido in their own way - thats not to say any of them are bad or wrong. I've been shown too many different techniques by Koreans claiming them to be 'real Hapkido' to honestly believe there is one 'do'. Surely the diversity of Hapkido (whatever the school) is what makes it so attractive to us all? As for Combat Hapkido, the above posts make me more inclined to give it a go than not. After all, its only the cost of a seminar........ Cheers, Dave.
AHKD I agree I've never seen anyone made to do anything they were not comfortable with. I struggled with the high kicks because of my background in soccer (football). I spent 20 some years learning how to not kick high and it was always a bit of a struggle to "unlearn" something I had spent countless hours learning. I'm not sure if you or anyone on this board have met GM John Beluschak, but he has this ability to get his students to accomplish things they never thought they could. That is one of many things I admire about him. By the time I moved I was competent in the high kicks but they were not my strong point. Falling has always been a personal strength, although I had let it deteriorate a bit. You can't survive long doing Judo if you can't do Ukemi.
