UK law and kobutan

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by Stan O'Kella, Jun 8, 2005.

  1. Stan O'Kella

    Stan O'Kella Hmmmmmmmmmmm?


    Sorry to rain on your parade mate, but the kubotan is illegal to carry in the UK, if the law is applied to it. Anything made, adapted or intended to cause injury is classed as an offensive wepon and therefore illegal to carry in public in the UK. You are misinterpreting the ignorance of a lot of the police in relation to the weapon and the actual law, most UK cops dont know what a kubotan is. Those that do would arrest you for carrying it, in reality there is no self defence "weapon" legal in the UK, the only thihngs that are legal per se are alarms and the such like.


    As for the item itself, it is a very useful little tool. Mainly for locks and pinches and to augment strikes as has been said. I amy be wrong but i was thinkl i saw some stuff a few years ago about the use of it by UK special forces, aiding entry to vehicle and used for the "extraction" of people from the vehicles via locks applied with it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 9, 2005
  2. SCP_Kensei

    SCP_Kensei www.taintedlover.com

    I have attended many seminars and courses on Self Defense Legality often courses that had one or more Police in attendance. The Kubotan has often been raised as an example and has always been classified as follows.

    "If carried as a keyring, and not with the intention to use it then the Kubotan is legal), you may use it as a "Weapon of opportunity", so long as it is not used in a manner intended to cause grievous or lasting injury."

    Only the "Hollow Kubotan" is illegal in the UK.

    The average Kubotan is 5.5 inches long. If it was 6 inches or longer then it would be illegal to carry "without good cause" sucha as the pursuance of a profession etc...

    It's not legal to carry it as weapon, but it is legal to carry as a keyring, and then to use as aweapon should it be necessary. I have been interviewed by the police following my use of the kubotan and have been candid as to the nature of it. I have a non existant criminal record.
     
  3. Ad McG

    Ad McG Troll-killer Supporter

    Well that is an eye opener. I always thought they were illegal, but carried one on my keys in case I ever needed it.
     
  4. Stan O'Kella

    Stan O'Kella Hmmmmmmmmmmm?

    Prevention Of Crime Act 1953
    “Any person without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, proof of which lies with him, has with him in any public place any offensive weapon commits an offence”

    Offensive Weapon: Any article made, adapted or intended for causing injury. Anything that you can pick up and hit or stab someone with can be classed as an offensive weapon.

    A kubotan is not made as a key ring, it is a blunt impact/locking weapon that just happens to have a kering attached to it.

    The ignornace to the true use of the kubotan by the police that dealt with you does not change the fact that under the definition of the law the kubotan is an offensive weapon and therefore illegal to carry on the street.
     
  5. SCP_Kensei

    SCP_Kensei www.taintedlover.com

    You see there is one of the roots of this loophole. A true Kubotan IS made as a keyring, and i is not intended to cause injury. Correct use of the Kubotan will not cause injury. Which is why in Kubotan training in this country strikes are not taught.

    Don't assume that the local police where I live are ignorant of the Kubotan either, I have trained in Kubotan techniques with a number of local police, and I have had discussions about the nbature of the Kubotan with others.

    Because the Kubotan is not designed to cause injury, it is up to the Police to porve your intention with regards to carrying it.

    There are other stiuations that have similar loopholes.
     
  6. SCP_Kensei

    SCP_Kensei www.taintedlover.com

    I juts want to clarify that the above staements are based upon the law as I( have been taught it and as I have experienced it first hand. This should not be used as a statement of fact. Probably best not to go quoting a martial arts forum if some over zealous moron of a policeman picks you up.
     
  7. Stan O'Kella

    Stan O'Kella Hmmmmmmmmmmm?

    I am fully aware of the kubotan and the uses of it, the reasons you have stated in your previous posts would cause me to have reasonable belief that your intentions for carrying the said item fit the criteria for classing it as an offensive weapon.

    "I carry it not with the intention of using it, but if someone attacked me I would". That is what your saying right? In that case you have intended to use it as a weapon, and therefore if fits the defintion under the offensive weapon legislation and you are liable to arrest.

    In case your wondering I'm a copper. I'm trying to make you and other people aware that in the UK, following the letter of the law a kubotan would constrewed as an offensive weapon, and there is a possiblity of your arrest if found with one in your possession. I have personal knowledge of a case where someone was arrested for possesing a kubotan, not arrested by me though.


    Contrary to what you believe, the law in regards to offensive weapons is different than most laws. In most laws the Crown has to prove your intent etc, in offensive weapons cases it is up to you to prove your carrying of the weapon was not to use it as a weapon, the semantics of using it to lock and stating its not designed to cause injury are incorrect. If you apply a lock, you cause injury hyperextend the joint apply pressure to a muscle/nerve you cause injury, not severe but there is still injury.

    When they ask where you bought this keyring that is just for carrying your keys and you reply "martial arts shop" It knida indicates what the item is for.
     
  8. SCP_Kensei

    SCP_Kensei www.taintedlover.com

    Funnily enough I bought my Kubotan form an army navy store long before I started training in martial arts seriously. I bought it as a keyring (I tend to lose my keys all of the time), it wasnt untill I'd been doing BBT for 6 months that it was explained tomme what it was.
    I dont carry it for self defense, I carry it as a keyring. It's come in handy once or twice, but then again so does a walking cane (I carry one of those when going out quite often also, although I dont need to. It's a fashion accessory; the fact that I train in Inosanto Kali blend and would not hesitate to use it if I felt it necessary is another issue).
     
  9. SCP_Kensei

    SCP_Kensei www.taintedlover.com

    Sorry bout the double post.

    So, what If I buy/make something of very similar dimensions to a Kubotan?

    The intent is (as the kubotan was originally) to have a keyring that I will notice in my pocket, or that I will hear if it falls.

    It is NOT a kubotan. It was NOT designed to cause harm.

    But to someone with my frame of mind ANYTHING within reach is a weapon, form a rolled up magazine to a knapkin or a salt shaker.

    I never carry anything that I dont beleieve has some martial use, I am in a near constant state of readiness for attack when out of the house (one of the disadvantages of a rough childhood and too many years in martial arts).

    What is the legal posiution on those examples?
     
  10. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    "Lawful possession" correct ?

    I was stopped recently between my dojo and home and asked to show the contents of what the officer thought was a shotgun case. His eyes opened slightly when it turned out to be £1200 quids worth of Shinken.

    All the obvious questions then ensued and these were quickly answered through production of my Yudansha handbook and explaining I was on my way to teach a martial arts class.

    Thus I was in lawful possession of a weapon.

    Now, regardless of what anyone's intention was/is for buying a kubotan, walk into any bookshop/martial arts store and order a book on the subject, I doubt it will be full of illustrations and depictions of how to carry and not loose keys.

    Nunchaku, an example of a farming tool now most known for their weapon's application. Try explaining to a British Police officer that you're farmer Palmer and you need the nunchaku for your work. The connecting chain still allows for a split ring and bunch of keys. :)

    Dave
     
  11. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    The key phrase here in law is "made or adapted"

    A magazine isn't made as a weapon but if you roll it up and whack someone with it you have adapted it from its orignal form. Your keys for instance, used for opening the door, starting the car, start smashing someone around the head with them and you've adapted them to make a weapon.

    Something a bit more obvious, an axe. What came first, weapon or tool ?

    Regardless of the answer to that question, if you buy say a fire fighting axe and have it stored in a glass cabinet next to a fire extinguisher then it isn't classed as a weapon however, the moment you pick it up and threaten someone you've changed its purpose. It becomes an offensive weapon and its use under those circumstances is essentially unlawful.

    Dave
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2005
  12. Stan O'Kella

    Stan O'Kella Hmmmmmmmmmmm?

    Dave has got it right, the law in relation to offensive weapons has been written to be pretty much watertight. There are a number of weapons that are on the banned weapon list in the UK, i can post this list if anyone wants it.

    The second that the thought enters your head that whatever you are in possesion of you would use to hit someone or lock, it is then in the eyes of the law an offensive weapon. SCP you say you carry a cane, as a fashion accessory and then in the next sentence say you would use it if it came down to it, in that case you have the intention to use the cane as a wepaon and therefore the cane in your possession would be classed as an offensive weapon. No two ways about it, the fact that you then went onto mention Kali strengthens the laws argument that your reasons for carrying it are not 100% lawful. The fact that you do not need it as a walking aid and are carrying it to look good.

    There is the problem, worse case scenario the stuff hits the fan you get attacked, you are carrying your cane and you use it to defend yourself and the guy ends up in a bad way. A few months later you are in court in front of 12 people that more likely than not dont do martial arts, they have an idea of them gained from watching media shock stories and ultra violrnt films.

    Prosecution" why do you carry a cane?"

    You" it looks good"

    Prosecution" do you do martial arts? and what kind?"

    You " kali"

    you will then be asked to explain kali, which you will no doubt mention the fact that it uses weapons, and the fact that these weapons include sticks which are remarkably similar to walking canes.

    What are the 12 people gonna think??

    Here is one of those martial arts nuts, trained to use weapons one of those weapons being a stick and he then used this to beat someone up, and he expects us to believe that he was carrying it because it went with his shoes?

    How you gonna convince those 12 people that it was just meant to aid your style? cause the prosecution dont have to prove that was your intention, you have to prove it wasnt. Even withtout the assault, if you were just arrested for carrying the cane you still have to convince them that even with your training, choice of martial art and skill it was just cause it looked good.

    Same for the kubotan, similar to the palm stick used in kali, they know you train and that the thing you had was a martial arts weapon, and that you say it was just to help with your keys? They are all gonna look at their keys and think why do i need a 6" long key ring? it wont fit in my pocket?

    Sorry to Gyaku to the hi-jacking of this thread!! If a mod wants to split it to a legal thing and the use of the kubotan it may help!!!
     
  13. Anth

    Anth Daft. Supporter

    Your wish is my command!

    I know, I messed it up by not changing the thread title, but I am rushing to get to training. :bang:

    EDIT: fixed :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2005
  14. Gyaku

    Gyaku Valued Member

    Stan O'Kella

    I'd love to see the list!

    Cheers,

    Gyaku
     
  15. Anth

    Anth Daft. Supporter

    So would I! It would make it easier for me to plan my next toy :D
     
  16. Stan O'Kella

    Stan O'Kella Hmmmmmmmmmmm?

    Here are the specific listed offensive weapons in the UK, basically there is no defence to being in possesion of one of these in public, they could be in your house and you wouldnt be committing the offence of possesion of offensive weapon because the law says "when not at his place of abode ........." But you may have to account for how you came by it as it is illegal to import them to the UK, sell them, or hire them out.



    Knuckle duster
    Sword stick
    Balisong / Butterfly Knife
    Shruiken
    Belt buckle knife
    Hollow kubotan
    Push dagger
    Kyoketsu shoge
    Kusari game
    Footclaw
    Kusari
    Blowpipe
    Handclaw
    Telescopic truncheon




    Obviously anything else that is made adapted of intended to cause injury would be classed as an offensive wepaon if possesed in public, but things like nunchaks etc you can still generally buy in some places, are still offensive wepons but you could try and justfy to an extent your possesion of the, i.e on the way to or from a martial arts class.
     
  17. Scotty Dog

    Scotty Dog www.myspace.com/elhig

    Just out of curiosity, is there any criteria that ment these weapons made the list when others didn't???

    Or did the government just choose the ones that were causing the most hysteria at the time??
     
  18. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Bingo!!
     
  19. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

    The former, not the latter.

    Kneejerk reactions by MPs to appease their constituants so that they retain their jobs.
     
  20. Jang Bong

    Jang Bong Speak softly....big stick

    Stan - interesting discussion, and an interesting list as well. In the more 'generic' weapons list, I remember some discussion about flexible implements where the flexible length is greater than the weights at either end. Am I becoming senile, or is this a proper one?

    On this rule alone (I know - other rules would apply) - that would make nunchaku OK but skipping ropes an offensive weapon :)

    In your 'courtroom drama', any chance of taking a few steps back to "you were attacked and defended yourself". I know that you can end up in more trouble for what you SAY rather than what you DO - and I hope that the law cannot comandeer real names from MAP to use as evidence in a case like this (please tell everyone if they can :eek: ) - but after a number of months getting to court, who would contradict that the poor cane user was not recoving from a sprained ankle?

    In my day job I drive a 'library bus' type vehicle, and the fuel keys are about 5 inches long and stiff (although not as thick as the kubaton that started this conversation). If my teacher does provide some little training in kubaton use, and I find myself in need to use a technique with this blunt plastic key, would I really be charged with having an offensive weapon?

    You make it sound like having martial arts knowledge is a very dangerous thing, as that knowledge will be used against you. :(
     

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