Differences in ITF

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by LewisHolder, Dec 11, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Valued Member

    You take a few lines from a single paragraph about him being very young and spending some time with a caligrophy teacher who taught him some Taekkyon. This is nominal comapred to the lengthy treatment,. dozens and dozens of pages he devotes to Shorin and Shorei in his 1965 book.
     
  2. kmorrisonnyc

    kmorrisonnyc Valued Member

    "the WTF was formed in '73 because Choi and the ITF was exiled from South Korea" - Really? That's why the WTF was formed? :wow::bang:

    Was General Choi 'exiled'? I understood it that he chose to leave South Korea...

    Why do you state he was dishonorable?
     
  3. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    The man couldn't even hold on to his honorary rank (i.e. one that was given to him) of 4th dan in the Chung Do Kwan because of his dishonesty. This was in the late 50s before he even founded the first ITF.

    Guys like Nam Tae Hi and CK Choi were the real talents. General Choi was the publicity figure, but he used overhyped propaganda and bogus claims to generate that popularity you mentioned. The guy practically created bullshido.
     
  4. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Why do you keep insisting I'm getting my information from his 1965 Encyclopaedia? When I talk about his claims of training in Taekkyon and thus using that (fabricated) experience to create his version of taekwondo, I'm talking about the decades he went around saying it to his students, at seminars, and in interviews.

    And I acknowledged the influence of Shorei-ryu and Shorin-ryu all the times I said ITF TKD is a Shotokan rip off; one which went quickly downhill when Choi introduced sine wave as a gimmick in response to the rising popularity of the WTF in the 70s and 80s.
     
  5. FunnyBadger

    FunnyBadger I love food :)

    Can I just point out that judo started as a martial art, kodokan judo is a martial art. There are kata that deal with many self defence situations. Judo the sport is what's called randori or sparring, that is only one part (albeit a large part) of classical judo. Judo as most practise it is sport judo but that doesn't mean kodokan judo doesn't exist.

    There are many paralels between judo and TKD in that respect.
    Kids in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
     
  6. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    It all gets a bit murky, but the general consensus is that Choi left S. Korea because he betrayed his people by liaising with N. Korea. Choi and his students called it "voluntary exile," but he'd very likely have faced a lengthy prison sentence if he stayed.

    Yes, the WTF was formed because Choi planned to move the headquarters of TKD to Canada as he became more and more of an unwelcome figure. I call him dishonourable because a lot of people who spent any length of time with him thought of him as very shady; he lied about his past to increase taekwondo's popularity; he was removed from the Chung Do Kwan because of dishonesty; and he took credit for a lot of work that wasn't his.
     
  7. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Valued Member

    To the contrary.

    I am insisting that you repeat something someone says they heard once and told it to someone else who repeated it. You have no firsthand experience nore can you cite a single written reference by the man himself which are contrary to the 5th hand hearsay you place sop much weight on.
     
  8. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Valued Member

    I guess you are referring to Sun Duk Son revoking the rank?
     
  9. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Valued Member


    Yet these "real talents" elected to follow General Choi.

    Did you ever hear Nam Tae Hi or CK Choi say anything negative about General Choi? Did you ever hear them say they were the real talent?
     
  10. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Of course, which is why Rhee Ki Ha and many of the UKTA's senior instructors were always spouting on about it. :rolleyes:

    Choi's claims of studying Taekkyon are well documented, as a cursory Google search will show.
     
  11. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Go on, what sob story were you spoon fed why Choi was distrusted so much?
     
  12. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    They weren't the publicity whores Choi was.
     
  13. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Valued Member

    Originally Posted by Earl Weiss
    I guess you are referring to Sun Duk Son revoking the rank?

    You posted a statement about rescinding rank and I asked you a question. Why don't you just answer the question?
     
  14. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Valued Member

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Earl Weiss
    Yet these "real talents" elected to follow General Choi.

    Did you ever hear Nam Tae Hi or CK Choi say anything negative about General Choi? Did you ever hear them say they were the real talent?
    They weren't the publicity whores Choi was.
    __________________

    You made a comment about who the real talent was. I would like to know the source of your information. I didn't state or imply they were seeking publicity. You apparently view their talent in a positive light (as do I) so I wanted to know if it was their opinion you were repeating or once again just something you heard somewhere.
     
  15. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Valued Member

    I never said that he was so your premise is faulty. It is clear that Korea was rife with political conflict including military coups. Being favored or disfavored by whomever happened to be in power had a very real impact. This hppened to Lee Won Kuk long before it happened to General Choi.
     
  16. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Valued Member

    The issue of him making mention of some time studying it is not the issue. The issue is your cliam of some extensive studying and some claim of TKD being largely based on this when no first hand text by General claim makes such a broad sweeping claim. PArticularly if you read the statement in context which seemingly calls all ancient Korean arts taekkyon as a generic name.

    It's really not clear from your post if they were purportedly sputing on about him studying taekkyon, or spouting on about it not being true.

    I guess if a Google search documents something it must be true, like TKD being 2000 years old.

    And of course if the same search revelas 200 things that all quote a single source then of course that source must have repeated it 200 times.

    Seriously?
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2014
  17. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Valued Member

    Choi Hong Hi claims he was trained in the Korean martial art of Taekyon by his calligraphy teacher, Han Il Dong. While the Korea Taekkyon Association apparently states these claims were false it should be noted that Taekkyon developed as both a game and a martial art. Yung Ouyang points out that Taekkyon's origins as a game means that the lack of any sort of lineage records before the recent past is to be completely expected.[1] "Why would anyone want to keep track of who learned from whom how to play a game that was looked down upon anyway? ... Such record keeping is counter-intuitive since if the Japanese had ever gotten hold of such records, the consequences would have been disastrous." Additionally, it was actually the influence of Japanese martial arts on Koreans that can account for the great "concern for lineage and legitimacy. Those who were able to learn formally from masters and had their names in records were probably few in number. The folk nature of taekkyon points to its indigenousness. Obsessiveness with legitimacy through lineage points to something that is foreign and desires exclusivity." As such, the fact that there is no corroboration of Gen. Choi's claim from the Korea Taekkyon Association (as well as Hwang Kee and others) is not surprising. What is surprising is that the organization would even make a claim when there is such a derth of records to begin with.
    http://www.eppingtkd.co.uk/articles_62019.html
     
  18. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    No evidence to support Choi's claim he trained in Taekkyon.

    No movements in Taekwondo that resemble Taekkyon.

    Simplest explanation? Choi made it up to promote his system.

    Why does this matter? Because so many ITF supremacists refuse to accept their martial art is nothing more than a bastardised version of Shotokan all the while proclaiming its greatness.

    My earlier prophecy of ITFers defending their art like the Church of Scientology is starting to come true... again...
     
  19. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    From a personal perspective I would like to add that none of this matters unless you are proclaiming some 2000 year old Korean Super Art.

    I think "bastardised" also carries pejorative implications that make me prefer "Koreanised."

    For me, ITF-style TKD (and mine is pre-sinewave) is in many ways another style of karate. It just happens to be Korean Karate. That's no better or worse than Shotokan or any other Karate style.

    As for Gen Choi, I think he's someone I admire the drive of, his zeal for spreading TKD, whilst having a realistic understanding of the actions of a man consumed by that purpose, which were often far from admirable.

    But it doesn't matter. I don't study Gen Choi, I study TKD.

    When it comes to the Taekkyon debate, I honestly think we just have to watch the early videos of TKD practitioners. What they're doing looks like Shotokan, not like Taekkyon. TKD comes from Shotokan and develops over time into something unique. I just don't see how that is a problem for anyone except a Korean nationalist?

    Mitch
     
  20. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    1886 called and wants its thread back.

    The judo club I trained at is also older than TKD.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page