Sulkido (British Kuk Sool) History

Discussion in 'Other Styles' started by Pugil, Mar 19, 2009.

  1. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    SUL KI DO
    United Traditional Korean Martial Art
    of Self Defence, Self Discipline, Self Fulfilment​

    THE UNITED TRADITIONAL Korean Martial Art of Sulkido is probably not as familiar to most readers as Taekwondo. However, The United Kingdom Sulkido Federation is recognised by the Martial Arts Commission (MAC) as the official governing body in the United Kingdom (UK) for the arts of Sulkido and Hapkido.

    The term “Sulkido” derives from the Korean words “Sul Bop”, meaning the methods of martial arts, “Ki Bop”, meaning the inner power of the mind which relates to the universal life force and “Do Bop”, meaning the ways of uniting through self-discipline, the mind and body to become one. We can therefore summarise Sulkido as being the Korean martial art of power co-ordination.

    In fact, traditionally, the main Korean martial arts can be divided into two groups: those related to Taekwondo and those related to Hapkido. Those in the first group comprise Taekwondo, Tangsudo and Kongsudo. Before the emergence of Taekwondo, Tangsudo and Kongsudo were commonly practised in Korea, and although Tangsudo continues to flourish, Kongsudo is not at the moment so well known. Politically, in the UK the arts of Taekwondo and Tangsudo have their own governing bodies with separate representation on the MAC, whilst Kongsudo was once represented under the United Kingdom Sulkido Federation (UKSF) by the UK Kongsudo Council (UKKC) which has now been disbanded.

    Strong movements

    All these arts emphasise hard and strong movements and their forms are based on straight lines, both the movements themselves and the overall pattern of the form. Traditionally the syllabus did not cover breakfalls and therefore throws, joint-locks, etc., were also excluded as these are too dangerous to practise if the student cannot protect him or herself by break falling.

    The second group of arts relate to Hapkido, which itself has many styles and branches in Korea. Included in this group are various similar arts such as Hwarangdo and Kuksoolwon. “Hwarangdo” originally referred to the ethical code of the legendary Hwarang warriors, but has now been adopted as the name of a separate art in the USA. It is not at the moment represented on the UKSF. There is a lot of confusion concerning the present status of Kuksoolwon. The words “Kuksoolwon”, as opposed to simply “Kuksool”, can be translated to mean the actual building where martial arts are taught (“Won” meaning school). However many writers do not distinguish between “Kuksoolwon,‘ and “Kuksool” and therefore do not limit the meaning in this way. Kuksoolwon has therefore been claimed to be a separate art in its own right, particularly in the USA, whilst others claim it to be a style of Hapkido, as indeed it is in Korea. No doubt with the passing of time this confusion will be resolved.

    All the arts in the Hapkido group emphasise more circular, evasive movements, smoothly flowing from one to the next, and strikes are based more on “snap power”. These arts include breakfalls and therefore all types of self-defence techniques including throws, joint-locks. Not all of these arts have set forms, but those which do, have forms which are circular and flowing in nature.

    This brings us on to Sulkido itself which straddles the two groups. Apart from being the name of the governing body for the Korean arts mentioned above, Sulkido is also the name of a separate art which was founded under the name of “British Kuksool“ in 1973 by Grandmaster M. Y. Kim. In common with the other Korean martial arts, the roots of its origins can be traced back as far as 4,000 BC, and only a brief summary of the more recent events will be given here.

    Grand-master Kim started teaching in the UK in 1973. Being qualified as a Master Instructor in both Hapkido (8th Dan) and Taekwondo and having a background as a Social Worker (BA, SNU) and Army Officer (1966-1968, ROTC 4th) in Korea, Grand-master started teaching his own particular style, under the name of British Kuk Sool. “Kuk” means nation and is intended to refer to Korea, “Sool” means technique and is intended to refer to martial art. Hence “Kuk Sool” means Korean national martial art, just as “Kuk Ki”, is the Korean national sport, Taekwondo. British Kuksool (later Sulkido) is an amalgamation of Taekwondo and Hapkido combining the techniques and principles of both arts.

    The British Kuksool (Sulkido) Association was set up as the governing body, and with the formation of the British Association of Korean Martial Arts (BAKMA) in 1975, British Kuksool (Sulkido) was recognised as a separate art in its own right and became a founder member of BAKMA, the others being Taekwondo, Tangsudo and Hapkido. At that time due to the confusion over the nature of Kuksool explained above, the Hapkido group objected to Kuksool being recognised separately. However later, they joined with the British Kuksool (Sulkido) Association which accepted them somewhat reluctantly, and the organisation became known as the United Kingdom Kuksool (Sulkido) Federation (UKKSF). So it was, that in 1976 when the MAC was formed the UKKSF was confirmed as the governing body for British Kuksool (Sulkido) and for Hapkido. When the British Association of Korean Martial Arts (BAKMA) was dissolved (1978) it was accepted as a direct member of the MAC and its constitution officially approved.

    By 1981 it was felt necessary to change the name of the governing body and the art of British Kuksool to “Sulkido”, mainly for three reasons: 1 to open the door to all styles of Hapkido groups outside the UKKSF and therefore outside MAC, who objected to a governing body using the name Kuksool which they contended was a style of Hapkido as in Korea; 2 to recognise Kuksoolwon as a separate art from Hapkido and to enable the two arts to co-exist peacefully side by side; 3 to act as the official umbrella control organisation representing the arts of Sulkido, Hapkido, Kongsudo and other similar traditional Korean martial arts (such as Kuksoolwon and Hwarangdo) on the MAC.

    Official recognition​


    Later in 1988, the UK Sports Council started on an official recognition process for the various martial arts in the UK, and it then appeared that it was not up to the UK Sulkido Federation to recognise different arts, but for the MAC /Sports Council. So far, the MAC recognises four Korean martial arts, namely Taekwondo, Tangsudo, Sulkido and Hapkido, therefore at present the UKSF is the governing body only for Sulkido and Hapkido, other types of Kuksoolwon still officially being recognised as styles of Hapkido. If Kuksoolwon and Hwarangdo organisations wish to join the MAC, this can therefore only be as a style of Hapkido, as in Korea.

    The UKSF aims to promote unity among the various Korean martial arts. With governing bodies currently undergoing a re-recognition process with the Sports Council, it has been suggested that the UKSF should change its name once again, this time to the Korean Martial Arts Federation. However this new name would potentially cover the arts of Taekwondo and Tangsudo which are at present quite separate from the UKSF and would therefore require their agreement.

    In the present circumstances, a more appropriate name which is being considered at the moment, for the governing body would be the British Control Board of Sulkido and Hapkido (BCBSH). If one governing body were to be set up for all Korean arts (like the British Council for Chinese Martial Arts), and all these arts were willing to join, the UKSF would also be in favour, even though it should be borne in mind that the British Association of Korean Martial Arts (BAKMA) ended in dissolution.

    So much for the organisational aspects and we can now turn to the individual art of Sulkido itself. Grandmaster M. Y. Kim, the Founder of Sulkido, is currently based in London at the National Sulkido Academy (NSA) where small regular classes of about 12 members per class are held every evening (Mondays to Saturdays). The NSA operates as the administrative centre for the UKSF, as well as being the head dojang (gym).

    On entering the NSA, one cannot help being struck by the members Oath, prominently displayed in the reception area, and this provides a convenient starting point for any explanation of Sulkido. The Oath has three branches, relating to the physical, mental and spiritual aspects of the art as follows:

    1. Physically, I practise Sulkido for self-defence, in order to develop integrity and achieve self-respect.
    2. Mentally, I practise Sulkido for self-discipline, in order to improve the ability to communicate and achieve self-awareness.
    3. Spiritually, I practise Sulkido for self-fulfilment, in order to gain humility by self-control and finally achieve harmony with others.

    1 On the Physical level then the reason for Sulkido’s existence, in common with all martial arts, is self-defence. As stated in the Oath we start to learn self-defence with the aim of self-respect in mind. As with any system of martial training, a number of rules exist designed to promote physical safety, one of the most important rules being respect: for oneself, between students and between students and instructor. It would be a foolish person who decided to put a lethal weapon in the hands of someone who does not understand safety. Etiquette and respect then, are necessary at the beginning on the purely physical level for safety.

    What follows is a brief description of the techniques taught by the UKSF, all of which are included in the Sulkido syllabus which is obviously very wide-ranging due to the fact that it is an amalgamation of the two principle types of Korean art, Taekwondo and Hapkido. These techniques are found to varying degrees in the other arts represented by the UKSF depending on the nature of the art (hard or circular) and whether they include breakfalls or forms.

    RELEASE HOLDS: These are the foundation techniques of Sulkido and taught in various aspects right through the range of lower grades and in a more advanced form to the higher grade student. They are practised in the form of an attacker grabbing or holding any part of the body such as the wrist, arm, neck or even hair and in more practical terms when part of the clothing is held. In fact all possible situations are covered. By learning and constant practice of these techniques, students gain a working knowledge of wrist, elbow and shoulder joints, and the applied use of nerve and pressure points. For self-defence these techniques are both simple and effective and with speedy application even the strongest adversaries can be overcome.

    THROWS: In many ways throws follow on from release holds, for example, having released an attacker’s hold it may prove necessary to subdue him further and so a throw may be implemented to achieve this aim. The throws used in Sulkido do not require great strength, and moreover many rely on the use of correct position and balance. Some throwing techniques taught involve the possible breaking of an arm joint. However, they are never utilised in any way during “sparring practice”, and are only practised under strict supervision.

    STRIKES: Sulkido probably employs more kicking techniques than any other individual martial art. These include low and high spinning kicks and long range flying kicks. For “free sparring‘, the development of snap-power in kicking is important. This can best be described as a whiplash effect where an initial light kicking action can terminate in a powerful blow. This same principle also applies to “snap-punching” used in free sparring. Of course more powerful kicking and punching techniques are used, as well as knife hand, reverse knife hand and many others. In Sulkido the materials used to demonstrate breaking ability are wood, tiles and red brick. It can be said that these objects are brittle and cannot fight back, but they certainly do require of the student a degree of skill and fearlessness before they can be effectively broken.

    Vulnerable points​


    VITAL POINTS: There are known to be as many as 350 vulnerable points on the human body and knowledge of many of these is important to Sulkido students. In situations where an attacker proves to be stronger than the students, strikes to “nerve points“ prove to be very effective. Again, in practice sessions no direct contact power is used, for it is certain that at least temporary disablement will occur.

    WEAPONS: In sulkido when a student attains a grade of black belt, he or she is said to have learnt the basics of empty hand self-defence and is now given the opportunity to learn the far greater disciplines involved in the training and use of weapons. Much of the weaponry is of the traditional kind. Sulkido because of its development of practical self-defence, has also included many techniques using every day items one might carry, such as a walking stick or umbrella; even a rolled up newspaper can prove deadly; and for ladies a handbag that might have been snatched can be quite useful against the attacker.

    FORMS: In Sulkido forms are taught to beginners to provide a strong and hard foundation and to develop balance and strength. From blue belt (over one year training) upwards circular forms are also taught. These forms concentrate on speed, based on balance, and hence increase power. The black belt forms introduce a new element, that of a twisting motion, where the upper part of the body rotates in one direction and the lower part in the opposite direction involving the muscles in a twisting movement. This can also happen on a smaller scale involving individual muscles. This is to overcome the limitation in power in the linear and circular forms, as the muscles are twisted much as the strands of a rope are twisted together for further strength and endurance. Release of the tension results in an increase in speed and therefore power. These twisting forms are taught to black belts in conjunction with more advanced linear and circular forms.

    The three basics which need to be emphasized have been summarised by Grandmaster Kim as the Sulkido “3 B’s“, Breathing, Breakfalls and Balance. The practice of breathing techniques is designed to generate “Ki”, ie the energy which exists within ourselves relating to the universal life force.

    Breakfalls, apart from being a whole body exercise, lead to Self-confidence in defence and attack.

    Finally, Balance is essential for speed, speed together with body weight and timing is the most important element in the creation of power. Balance is improved and perfected through the emphasis in training on the three stages of forms mentioned above, linear, circular and twisting.

    The techniques of Sulkido are themselves based on three underlying principles: the water, circle and harmony principles.

    1 The Water Principle: When deflecting the attacker’s punch, we are like water which has been penetrated by a stone: no sooner has the stone divided the water than it flows together again to surround and envelope the stone.

    2 The Circle Principle: Instead of blocking the attacker’s punch with a direct counter-block, in other words meeting force with force, we would utilize the circular principle and deflect or re-direct the force of the punch.

    3 The Harmony Principle: Even though the force of the punch is directed straight at us, we do not oppose that force but instead go with it. In this way we harmonize with the force becoming one with it.

    The art of Sulkido therefore combines smooth flowing evasive movements coupled with sudden hard strikes which place a great emphasis on “snap power”. There is a comprehensive range of escape techniques employing the use of nerve holds, locks, pressure points and throws. Add the use of traditional and non-traditional weapons and you will see that Sulkido covers a wide spectrum of self-defence. Although this may seem daunting to the beginning student, it is also one of the attractions of the art, giving rise to an immense sense of achievement and in the end self-respect, as one by one the techniques are mastered.

    As a system of self-defence, Sulkido can truly be described as a complete Korean martial art.

    2 The second branch of the Sulkido members Oath deals with the mental aspect of the art. Sulkido is taught according to the traditional way of martial arts with emphasis placed from the beginning on correct etiquette, respect and discipline, just as safety is emphasised when using firearms. As explained above, this has a justification on the physical level in order to maximise safety. The justification on the physical level is perhaps harder for the beginning student to understand and beginners naturally tend to spend more effort on the purely physical side. An appreciation of the martial arts code is something which develops gradually as the student progresses through the lower grades and by the time the grade of black-belt is reached, mental
    discipline becomes more important.

    Traditional method​


    The traditional method of teaching is essentially based on an idea of social order deriving from confusianism, which is held together by respect. Socially, one was expected to show respect for one’s country, respect for one’s teachers and respect for one’s parents. Each member of society held in allotted place and had their own role to play within society. Thus in martial arts respect is shown by student to instructor and beginners to senior members so that all can perform their allotted roles harmoniously. At the start orders and discipline need to be imposed, but once self-discipline increased each member can act in harmony with each other.

    The aim of self-discipline is thus to achieve harmony and order with the Sulkido family, and the wider martial arts community.

    It can, of course, also be applied to life outside the dojang (gym). From this point of view, the mental aspect is the important part of the art and the one which leads its members towards a happier life rather than arguing with each other.

    If we concentrate on developing kicking and punching, and imitating animal forms only from the physical point of view, in a way, we are no better than animals ourselves. Martial arts provide a common interest for our members but are not an end in themselves, rather they are a tool.

    What the sculptor intends to carve in his mind is more important than obtaining a sharp chisel for himself. It is the mental way, through self-discipline, by which we achieve physical proficiency in our techniques, that is important, not the techniques themselves.

    3 This brings us on to the third and final branch of the Sulkido Oath which deals with the spiritual aspect and sets out the final goal: Spiritual harmony. This part of the Oath can be summarised by reference to the oriental comparison between wise-men and crops at harvest time. Once the crops have reached maturity and the fruits are ripe their heads bow down. Similarly, the person who has become wise, also becomes humble, bowed with weight of knowledge and is thus able to live in harmony with others. If, after spending great effort to perfect our physical techniques we compare ourselves to animals, we might feel that in fact we have achieved nothing in civilized society. However, we must break through to the next stage and realise that we have indeed achieved something in harmony with others.

    In Sulkido we say on the physical level “balance makes speed makes power“. Similarly, on the mental level, physical discipline leads to mental control, leads to spiritual harmony. Thus spiritual harmony with each other is true strength and real power.

    It is perhaps appropriate to finish by quoting Grandmaster Kim’s message to members: “I hope that through the practice of, and common interest in, martial arts, we will develop physically and mentally so that we can achieve a better understanding not only of ourselves but also of others, regardless of race, colour or creed. Ultimately we should feel ourselves enabled to make a better contribution to our families and to the society in which we live.” - lst January, 1978.

    Fighters - The Martial Arts Magazine - December 1991
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2010
  2. Dragonkarma

    Dragonkarma Valued Member

    this old post

    I met met master Mok Yum Kim back in the early 1980's. He was a very nice man. He was a Kuk Sool Won master back then. He is now desceased.

    To help clear up confusion over Kuk Sool Won and other arts using the name "kuk sool'- All Kuk Sool Won comes from grandmaster In Hyuk Suh.

    Over time, some Korean Kuk Sool Won masters decided to start their own systems. The name " KUK SOOL WON" and the letters "WKSA" are trademarked.
    Therefore , those who left cannot use that name. Subsequently, they began using similar names such as "kuk sool hapkido" , "kuk sool kwan", "kuk sul do", and other such labels.

    There are plenty of video clips and pix of most of these guys wearing their Kuk Sool Won uniforms and participating in demos for Kuk Sool Won. Some will admit this and others deny it but there is documentation. Some clips are on youtube.

    Yang Soon Tae, Yang Choon Sik, Hee Young Kim, and many others spent time learning Kuk Sool Won before creating their own thing. At least He Young Kim admitted this in one of the magazine articles on his life.

    In a recent interview, Yang Soon Tae said he came up with the idea for koong joong ( or kung jung ) musool in 1975. The only problem with his story is that he is in a Kuk Sool Won uniform and doing a demo in 1985. If you made your own thing in the 70's how come you are practicing Kuk Sool Won in the 80's ??

    There is a tendency by these guys to make up their histories "after the fact".

    Kuk Sool Won is composed of 3 main branches of traditional Korean martial arts-koong joong musool ( royal court ), Bulkyul musool ( buddhist temple ) and Sado musool (tribal) martial arts. Guys that left the org. often use one of these names in their personal versions.
     
  3. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    While much of what Dragonkarma has put in his post is true, I'm afraid he hasn't thoroughly researched all of the available material to back up some of his claims. The group known as "Kuk Sool Kwan" [국술관] has plenty of documentation to prove that this organization originated around the same time as Kuk Sool Won (perhaps even before).
     
  4. Dragonkarma

    Dragonkarma Valued Member

    kuk sool kwan & others

    It may be true that other groups formed about the same time as Kuk Sool Won. That is certainly the claim of kuk sool kwan and also Joo Bong Lee's hwarang do.
    I just find it interesting that these guys use the Kuk Sool Won curriculum including forms unique to KSW.
    This implies they learned it from the same source. Since the bulk of KSW came from In Hyuk Suh's grandfather, Suh Myung Duk, and pek pahl ki hyung from the monk Hae Dong Sue Nym , how did those guys learn the forms ?
    None were students of these two men.
    That leaves their source of learning to be In Hyuk Suh or students of In Hyuk Suh.
    On youtube is a clip of kuk sool kwan using KSW's pek pahl ki hyung. When Joo Bong lee 1st came to the U.S., I saw a TV commercial he made in Los Angeles. The student was doing KSW's cho gup hyung.
    After comments made by me and others, Yang Choon Sik (kung jung musul) and Yang Choon Sik (kuk sool do ) have started to change their curriculums.
    Previously, it was an exact copy of KSW.
    At least Hee Young Kim came clean in an article published in "Tae Kwon Do Times" and said that he met with fellow hapkido masters. He told them that they didn't have enough material and should learn KSW and then add it to their curriculum. Those are his words , not mine.

    If any of these masters are so good and their own created arts are so great, how come they continue to copy KSW and steal from In Hyuk Suh ?

    Sure , they are entitled to start their own associations and techniques can't be copyrighted. Still -give credit where credit is due.
     
  5. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Uncited, yet true

    I'm not going to bother with trying to cite all my references when it's you (Dragonkarma) who refuses to edify yourself and who continually chooses to cling to a heap of biased rhetoric (note that everything I mention below, was taken from fully researched & documented references). With that said, let me state that there are very few, truly remarkable figures in the annals of MA. I believe In-hyuk Suh to be one of them, as who could trifle with such lofty aspirations as heading one's own MA organization when barely considered an adult. Even if he began training at 5 years of age (which would mean roughly 15 years of training when starting his own organization), pursuing such an endeavor at such a young age shows much courage as well as chutzpeh (nope, I'm not Jewish, I just like the word).

    Let's not quibble about the ORDER that the joint-lock techniques are presented, for the moment. Instead, let me point out how different the chin-na (joint manipulations) in chinese gung-fu are in comparison to those of HKD or AKD (which are essentially the same ones used in KSW). From this perspective, it's difficult to deny the obvious and assert that this body of techniques in the KSW curriculum is not derived from the SINGLE Korean source of such stuff (namely, Young-sool Choi). I've also seen some photos of In-sun Seo depicting breathing and/or palm striking postures which are exactly IDENTICAL to line-drawn human figures in a rather old chinese manuscript concerning MA (note that these postures are not specific to his HKD organization, but are taught in KSW as well). And while monks rarely change their 'Buddha' name, using the same one consistently throughout their life, the fact that they might use a pseudonym to author a book or what have you, does occur. Still, it's particularly strange that there are NO RECORDS whatsoever of any "hae-dong seunim" in any of the Korean temples, be they Buddhist or Taoist.

    Furthermore, I have to wonder if the 'old man' that In-hyuk Suh supposedly learned the bulk of his MA knowledge from was his grandfather or his great-grandfather. GM Suh has always insisted that it's the former, yet I have read where someone did the math and reported that Myung-duk Suh would have been a very young man (perhaps a teenager?) when the military was disbanded by the Japanese. If this is correct, it's highly unlikely that such a young person would have been given a post as a 'master-instructor.' If the story about the Suh family being a MA family for many, many generations is true, it could be posited that the old man returning home to teach his family in secret was the great-grandfather of In-hyuk Suh. Unfortunately, that's contrary to the hype repeated over & over by proponents of KSW.

    You can continue to believe the many unsupported stories espoused by KSW or you can dig just a little beneath the surface of these tall tales to reveal what many have proven time and again. How much of the KSW curriculum is actually derived from the sources you suggest (which is the same as the KSW line of BS they try to feed to every newcomer), and how much of it came from sources other than Myung-duck Seo, the East-Sea Monk, or whoever else fits into a believable (yet fabricated) fairy tale?
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2009
  6. Dragonkarma

    Dragonkarma Valued Member

    The Kuk Sool Won represents 3 main branches of martial arts in Korea.

    Koong Joong Mu Sul from In Hyuk Suh's grandfather

    Bulkyo mu sool from the monk ( this monk didn't normally take students and wouldn't have taken In Hyuk Suh except for a letter of recommendation written by Myung Duk Suh coupled with historical pressures). The monk was not a teacher at a temple, so there are no records. This is not unusual in martial arts history.

    Sado musool ( representing both indiginous martial arts and imports to the country )

    Most of the joint locking would fit into the Sado mu sool catagory, although the other two branches use some as well.

    Having a Chinese kung fu background, I can tell you that Chin Na does have a lot in common with hapkido and aikido. As you know, hapkido is the Korean pronounciation of aikido.
    Shao Lin used a "72" basic joint lock program but the best chin na technique is taught in the northern eagle's claw and taiji mantis schools.
    Uyeshiba, founder of aikido, studied in China. Many of the present day aikido throws and reversals come from the applications of Bagua Jong and Tai Chi Ch'uan.
    Everyone steals from everyone.

    In my "karate" days , we practiced jujitsu. When I got into kung fu, I didn't find much difference in the throws and locks. In KSW, I found the locks to be much tighter and more effective.

    Kicks, punches, joint locks, and throws are the basics of the art. The real treasure of KSW is the ki training and special skills section.

    In Sun Seo, In Hyuk Suh's older brother, used to be KSW's chief master before deciding to start his own thing. In Hyuk Suh was president of the Kido association. After moving to the U.S., In Sun Seo became president. The Kido association continues under In Sun Seo's direction. Kuk Sool Won was granted status as its own governing body seperate from the Kido association.

    You are correct when you notice a similarity between some postures in KSW with old Chinese manuscripts. The manuscripts in question are from Lam Sai Wing of the Hung Ga school. The form in question is the tiger-crane form.

    Chinese history says Hung Se Kuan developed the tiger crane form based on the character "I" tiger subduing form and tiger boxing which had been taught at Shao Lin temple. The form was further enhanced by the legendary Wong Fei Hung.

    I learned 3 versions of this form before starting in KSW ( Lam Sai Wing's, one from the fu jow pai, ie. tiger claw school, and one taught in Malaysa ).

    The form taught in KSW is " oon hak hyung" . While this follows the same footwork pattern, the form is radically different and the Kuk Sool Won version is ki training based.
    This came to KSW from the Buddhist temple .

    As for absolute historical records of every single component of anybody's martial art--there aren't any. The other side of that is there is no evidence that what has been sited is not true. I only know that In Hyuk Suh has never lied to me in the past 30 years.

    I have had many teachers from many arts and am most likely to catch any false claims. I have not.
     
  7. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    How convenient that the monk that IHS studied under wasn't a real monk (just like Joo Bang Lee's legendary HwaRang monk).

    I also find it hard to believe that you (Dragonkarma) know much at all about KSW, seeing as how you think that In-sun Seo is older than In-hyuk Suh. Too late to come back and say you meant In-suk Seo (who is now deceased). Just admit that you make up whatever you think sounds good at the time and rarely do you check any facts or do any research.

    If I'm right and you don't investigate any suspect claims, how on earth would you know if you've been lied to or not? I'm also fairly sure that many proponents of TKMA would find it funny that you think Myung-duk Seo is the ONLY source for palace martial arts.

    Save your breath and don't bother telling me the same crap I've heard over and over again during the entire time I've been in KSW. I'm immune to that repetitive brainwashing maneuver. Saying something repeatedly never makes it TRUE if it isn't.
     
  8. Dragonkarma

    Dragonkarma Valued Member

    UKJN

    Saying something ISN'T true over & over doesn't make it untrue.

    In Suk Suh was the eldest
    In Sun Seo is the next oldest
    In Hyuk Suh is next
    In Joo Suh is the youngest
    There's another brother who doesn't teach martial arts.

    The monk that taught IHS was "real" .

    As for KSW research , I was there from the beginning of the association in the U.S.. I tested at Ken Duncan's school in New Orleans and attended the first U.S. seminar.
    I know all those old Korean masters , including Hee Young Kim, Kim Mok Yum, Park Young Eel, Park Joong Sung, Park Long Kyu, and many others. I witnessed them in action and heard what they had to say.
    I spent 4 1/2 years living and training in the San Francisco school. I have pix and video of many of them.
    I was there before most of the Americans became masters and I know more about them than I want-the good, the bad, and the ugly.

    So-I know a hell of a lot more about KSW, the masters, and the behind -the scenes -story than you ever will.

    You offer no solutions to problems. You are just another instigator, player-hater with a lot of time on your hands and nothing better to do than whine.
     
  9. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Reply To: GG

    Gee, what an original come-back line. :rolleyes:


    Maybe I'm wrong, but am fairly certain that IHS is second oldest.

    BTW, In-suk Seo used the same romanized surname as In-sun Seo. When IHS immigrated, he didn't realize that the "H" was accidentally omitted and was "In Hyuk Su" for many years (he legally changed it a number of years ago - this action included his wife as well as George & Alex, but not Sung-jin which is why his last name in the franchise document is spelled "Su"). In-joo Suh had learned from the previous mistake and got it right from the get-go.

    FWIW, the brother that doesn't teach MA, I've heard referred to as "doctor Suh" and birth order places him between In-sun Seo & In-joo Suh. Actually he's not really an M.D. but merely a medical technician or a pharmacist (I can't rightly recall which), and calling him by this title is due to a common asian custom that exalts anyone in the field of medicine, regardless of their actual profession. :star:


    I didn't say he wasn't a real person, I said how convenient it was that he didn't reside at any particular temple, which in my book makes him suspect as a "real monk." If no records exist for him, it's rather weak to proclaim him as a bona fide monk. :bang:


    I'm fully aware of your background (note your initials in the title of this post). But I was referring to stuff that has been alluded to that occurred in Korea, long before IHS ever set foot on the shores of the USA. When discussing such matters, you blindly repeat the same hogwash that has been proven to be fabrications, by people who HAVE done the research and provide enough facts which either directly expose these stories as myth, or as highly improbable given the circumstances. :confused:


    You don't have a clue as to what all I know or don't know, so don't pretend that you do. Next time, try a little "critical thinking" before you go about posturing. :woo:


    :cry: Are you happy? Cuz now you've gone and hurt my feelings. :cry:

    It's all too obvious that when you get frustrated, you resort to name-calling (i.e. ad-hom attacks). Try acting your age instead of your shoe size. :bow1:
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2009
  10. Dragonkarma

    Dragonkarma Valued Member

    UKJN

    I was merely trying to bait you. You're too smart for that I see.

    Much of Korean martial arts history is foggy and some masters have retro-invented documents to support their own claims and orgs.

    What's the main reason for associating with any grandmaster or martial art ? Isn't it to learn ? I always ask myself two questions-

    1. Is the martial art good ?
    2. Will they teach it to me ?

    Kuk Sa Nym has more than fufilled that deal.

    Any association needs rules and regulations in order be successful and to expand a martial arts system worldwide, you have to have solid control. Some folks think it's an effort to control them personally but it's not about them, it's about quality control and protecting intellectual property.
    Kuk Sa Nym didn't invent martial arts but did design a system model ( which many continue to copy ) and an association to promote and spread the art.

    You probably know that when KSN first came to the U.S., he taught many techniques to He Young Kim. Kim would learn cane tech. and 2 months later , there would be a magazine article entitled " He Young Kim's hapkido cane techniques". Kim did the same with fan and rope tech. Kim offered to film the curriculum for KSN. He then took off with the film, later using it as a model for his own book on kuk sool.
    Both Yang Soon Tae and Yang Choon Sik decided to make up their own arts. They made and sold dvds of the KSW curriculum with THEIR names and brands on them.
    Even master Sims , who KSN loved and trusted, made his own dvds. He sat right beside KSN on seminar tour while offering them to his students at less than the cost of the HQ dvds. Master Sims said they were only supplemental
    dvds exclusively for his students. When I visited the Southeast schools, everybody had copies. They were not his students. Now he can sell them freely, but if you check them-they almost exactly follow KSN's design.

    Paul Carmody ( still in KSW ) made his own supplemental manuals for his students and had them on his website ( briefly ). We ALREADY have textbooks.

    Larry White swears Dickson Kunz is behind the "global kuk sool alliance" ( not yet proven ).

    From KSN's perspective, who can he trust ? Therefore, the association must have rigid rules and protections of the intellectual properties.

    These are just a few of the people that have caused problems . They always blame the association and/or Kuk Sa nym for their own failings and bad behavior. It's always "someone else's fault".

    People who disagree with assn. policy should voice their opinions to HQ and discuss solutions with them. If they can't resolve their issues then they should go their own way.

    As to the history of KSW as recorded in the textbook : Whether you believe it or not is a personal choice. As I said in the beginning-if it's good martial art and they will teach it to me, I could care less where it came from.

    History is just that-I'm living now.

    "Give me fuel, give me fire, give me that which I desire ! " -Metallica
     
  11. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    History

    History is actually a valuable tool. It not only provides us with knowledge from the past, but also lessons for the present and the future - which we can either acknowledge and learn from, or else disregard at our peril...

    "If history repeats itself, and the unexpected always happens, how incapable must Man be of learning from experience."

    George Bernard Shaw
     
  12. Dragonkarma

    Dragonkarma Valued Member

    pugil

    I agree with you. I don't mean to discount the importance of history as it relates to learning.
    Most of the folks I have met in the last 40+ years who practice martial arts do so for health and self defense. The history of the various arts while interesting, is not their main focus.
    Where a particular technique came from and who gets credit for inventing it will not help you from getting your butt kicked. Only its practical application (usefulness) and your skill employing it will do that.
    With Korean martial arts , there is a lot of "re-writing" going on. Some instructors fabricate their histories and embellish their resumes. They pay some homeland organization to issue them documents to support their claims.
    Many Ameriacans think of tae kwon Do, tang soo do, and Hapkido as being "Korean " martial arts. These are modern arts, not historically traditional to Korea.
    There are three main branches ( catagories ) of traditional Korean martial arts: Royal Palace ( koong joong musool ), Buddhist temple ( Bulkyo musool ) , and Tribal Clan ( Sado musool ) martial arts. Both the royal palace and Buddhist temple arts are highly systemized. The tribal arts come from a wide variety of sources and are not as well organized.

    If you love history, I suggest master Barry Harmon's book on the history of Korean martial arts. It covers all the various eras of actual Korean martial arts ( pre-dating all the new modern versions and imports to Korea).
     
  13. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Forgive me asking - although it does seem a reasonable enough question - but how do you know that Master Barry Harmon's history is any more accurate than any of the other stuff out there? What was his source of information and knowledge? Also, can you tell me which parts of the Kuk Sool syllabus relate to which area i.e. which techniques are from the Royal Palace, which from the Buddhist, and which are from the "not so well organized" [your phrase] Tribal arts. Do you know the names of those tribes by the way?

    In second century Britain, we used to have tribes too. They had names like: Caledonian; Dumnonii; Selgovae; Votadini; Novantae; Brigantes; Setantii; Parisi; Coritani; Iceni (one famous leader being Boudicca); Catuvellauni; Trinovantes; Cantiaci; Regini; Belgae; Atrebates; Demetae; Ordovices; Cornovii; Dobunni; Silures, and a couple more I believe. Needless to say, this is all very well documented and beyond any dispute. They all had their means and methods of warfare too, but the exact knowledge of actual techniques used can only be speculated on, to a limited extent, based on the known types of weapons they used. Strange that we can have an indisputable history of the British going so far back that doesn't record actual means of warfare in any real detail, yet on the other hand, we are told that the techniques of the Korean tribes, and how they handled themselves in conflict and warfare, is known well enough to be included in the Kuk Sool syllabus.
     
  14. Dragonkarma

    Dragonkarma Valued Member

    history

    Master Harmon speaks fluent Korean and did his research in country using Korean government historical documents and info and pix from several museums there as well as interviewing Korean historians.
    This historical study involves the actual military history of Korea and not any particular modern martial arts organization's "interpretation" of history.

    You asked how do we know if master Harmon's work is any different than other accounts . You have to compare it with those other volumes to discover that fact. A wise thing to do in any type of research. Check the bibliography in his book for sources.

    As to which techniques came from where, we only have a general understanding and not a technique-by-technique documentation.

    Generally speaking, the royal palace stuff includes sword, spear, trident, short swords, archery, bamboo fans and assorted open hand methods. These were used by the armies and the royal court. These types of martial arts techniques are diverse and varied, dating from the three kingdoms period and representing Kogoryo, Paekche, and Silla.

    A brief discussion of the sword types and their origins are on the Korean government's martial documentary " Ho Kuk Mu Yeh". Clips of this documentary are available for viewing on youtube . The film included Hapkido, tae kwon do, and Kuk Sool Won.

    The Buddhist temple stuff includes staff, drum stick, cane, and "animal" style open hand combat. Great emphasis was placed on "ki gong" and meditation.

    Both the royal palace arts and the Buddhist temple arts were restricted to the group's members. Commercial martial arts schools didn't exist.

    As for the "tribal" martial arts, these included systems used by fuedal lords, individual families, and the generic public information pool.
    The tribal section is also a "catch-all" classification which would include imports to korea, such as karate ( foundation for tae kwon do ), aikido ( foundation for hapkido ), and even kung fu styles ( like ship pahlki ).

    Today in the U.S., there is a generic information pool sometimes referred to as "American Karate". Back in the day, tang soo do had the best kicking in the U.S.tournament scene. Now, there's not much difference between tae kwon do, tang soo do, or other karate styles-it all got blended. That's what happens over time.

    The founders of any martial arts system form their curriculum based on their own personal training and research-their own personal "mix".
    It's pretty "knit-picky" to worry about where every little move came from. Life is too short to become that obsessed. The main thing is -is it good and can you get some ?

    The effectiveness of a martial art is not dependant on its history.
    The historical version may not be as effective as the modern one.
    Research, experimentation, and evolution are important. One of the main reasons I enjoy Kuk Sool Won is that it is a "living" , evolving art.
     
  15. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Yes, but you seem to get upset if someone whose surname isn't Suh (Seo?) decides to try and "evolve" it. :dunno: (for the sake of my comment, we can pretend that you didn't include the "Won" part in your sentence, which does, by copyright, belong to the Suh family)
     
  16. Dragonkarma

    Dragonkarma Valued Member

    don't mis-understand

    Pugil,

    I don't mind folks doing their own thing and developing their own arts.

    I do mind people ripping off Kuk Sool Won and not giving credit where credit is due.

    A perfect example is "sulkido"

    Fact 1- Kim Mok yum was a 6th degree Kuk Sool Won master.
    Whatever organization or art of his own he may have founded is largely created on the back of Kuk Sool Won. The "lion's" share of his knowledge came from the Kuk Sool Won curriculum- which was designed by In Hyuk Suh.
    At least He Young Kim admitted that a large part of the material for his "Han Mu Do" came from Kuk Sool Won.

    Fact 2- Master Larry White was a top student of master Kim's, having learned from him in England.
    Master Larry White studied before the invention of "sulkido" and is therefore the "grand-pa" of it's practitioners.
    Master Larry White is a prime example of the teachings of master Kim.
    Bow down to master Larry White !!!!

    Fact 3-Nearly all people using the name "kuk sool" have their origins from Kuk Sool Won. This is further complicated by people in Korea who changed their names from Kuk Sool Won to kuk sool hapkido -they were given the choice to stay as Kuk Sool Won or leave (by In Hyuk Suh ).

    They just change the name but still teach from the Kuk Sool Won curriculum designed by In Hyuk Suh. This is tantamount to stealing someone's car and painting it a different color in an attempt to hide the fact it's stolen.

    Many of these people still use the Kuk Sool Won general's uniform with different patches. The design was adopted first by In Hyuk Suh. They don't even have enough creativity to make their own uniforms.
    A few masters even copy In Hyuk Suh's personal gold uniform with imperial dragon patches. To prove my stolen car analogy, Yang Soon Tae made himself a blue one.The entire disgusting ripoff is like someone selling you a Rillex instead of a Rollex.

    Fact 4- Traditional Korean martial arts use the names "sool"(techniques) or "bup" ( the law of )---not Do ( way of ).
    In the past, imports from Japan or arts that had a heavy Japanese influence used the name "DO"-tae kwon do, hapkido,gum do,tang soo do, etc..
    Now, newly made-up arts use the ending "DO"-Hwarang do,kuk sool do,and yet another Kuk Sool Won clone-sulki do ( silly kido, I say ).

    Do folks have the right to start their own organizations and teach their own made-up stuff----yes.
    Is it right to rip someone off and leach off their hard work---no.
    Give credit where credit is due.
    Master Kim Mok Yum, Yang soon Tae, Yang Choon Sik, Kim He Young, Park Young El, Pak Long Kyu--they all owe the bulk of their knowledge to In Hyuk Suh and his Kuk Sool Won curriculum.
    I have film and pix to document most of this. You better believe I am busy acquiring more proof and will publish it as soon as possible.
    Some clips are already on youtube and more are coming.
     
  17. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Erm...

    I think that you are mistaking me with someone who gives a **** about your indoctrinated politics! Master Kim never denied being a Kuk Sool Master. He used the name Sulkido as what he was teaching in Britain was a mixture of Kuk Sool, Hapkido, and Taekwondo.

    I knew (and know) Larry White, and consider him to be a friend of mine. I also trained with Master Kim from when he first came to Britain in late 1973. He taught Taekwondo and Hapkido at first. It was only later that he introduced the name Kuk Sool in Britain. The reason he didn't use it from the outset was because no one in Britain had ever heard of Kuk Sool, whereas they had at least heard of Taekwondo and Hapkido.

    I knew Master Kim, and I know why he did the things he did, and why he decided to use the name Sulkido in Britain. He incorporated Taekwondo hard forms in his syllabus, and always explained that Sulkido was British Kuk Sool - as against Korean/American Kuk Sool, or Kuk Sool/Hapkido.

    Master M. Y. Kim was a friend of Dr He Young Kimm, who in using the name Han Mu Do (notice that he also used 'Do'), was simply taking the other half of Hankuk Musool to create a name for what he was teaching after he too left WKSA.

    I'm not even going to bother saying anything else as there is absolutely no point in trying to discuss something with someone who is so clearly 'caught up' in the 'organisation' to the point of being brain-washed by it, it would seem.
     
  18. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    OFF-TOPIC :topic:


    Hey Gene, I hope you didn't spend thousands of dollars on a "Rollex" watch (FYI the famous brand I think you meant is ROLEX, spelled with only one "L"). If so, I guess it wouldn't be the first time you got duped.

    On a different note, yet still off-topic, I find it interesting that almost all KMA seem to not want to stray from using only three syllables when inventing a name for a particular art (examples below - maybe too many).

    Tae Kwon Do
    Tang Soo Do
    Hap Ki Do
    Han Ki Do
    Han Mu Do
    Hap Mu Do
    Hwa Rang Do
    Sul Ki Do
    Kuk Sool Won
    Kuk Sul Do
    Han Gum Do
    Gum Do Kwan
    Choi Kwang Do
    Kwon Kyuk Do
    Kang Duk Won
    Kwan Sun Moo
    Chung Do Sool
    Dan Mu Do
    Yong Mu Do
    Soo Bak Do
    Sib Pal Ki
     
  19. Dragonkarma

    Dragonkarma Valued Member

    ha ha ha ha

    Knowing the truth doesn't make me brainwashed-if it did-you definitely need to wash yours.
    I certainly was never "indoctrinated" by anyone and there's nobody in the Kuk Sool Won doing that. That's your own invention.
    The only ones running any con-games are pugil and unknown kwan jang nym.
    The games you play are " I hate Kuk Sool Won and so should you " and " my org is better than yours".
    The lies you tell are "Kuk Sool Won indoctrinates its members", "Kuk Sool Won tries to control people too much", and that folks who know the truth are somehow "brainwashed".
    All of that is B.S. invented by you to promote your own agendas.

    You guys are only trying to re-invent the wheel, putting different names on the Kuk Sool Won curriculum for your own selfish profit. You're just a bunch of plagarizing hi-jackers.

    I'm not "caught up" in any political indoctrination--I have lived the history of Kuk Sool Won since it came to the U.S.. I am an eyewitness. I know when you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake !
    I don't care if you talk to me or not-I will still be around to poke my finger
    in your eyes ( the middle one ).

    Pugil and unknown kwan jang nym will continue to spew their malicious nonsense until everyone tires of wallowing in their myriad pools of mental masterbation.
    They are all bark and no bite anyway and all their attempts at causing trouble are impotent.
     
  20. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    You don't know me, so please don't think that you do...

    No one is trying to 'spew malicious nonsense' as you say Mr Gause, or do any of the other things that you ridiculously suggest!

    The late Master M.Y. Kim is sadly no longer around to defend himself. His decision to use the term Sulkido (British Kuk Sool) when speaking of his own martial arts method was not an overnight decision. The situation of martial arts administration and control was VERY different in the UK to the USA. In the early to mid-70's, the British Government became very concerned with the number of unlicensed martial arts clubs springing up all over the place, especially after the release of such films as Bruce Lee's 'Enter the Dragon'. Orientals, and some others, with dubious skills and qualifications simply started advertising and offering martial arts training to the British public, who could not possibly know if that person and their particular brand of martial art was bona fide or not.

    The British Goverment became so concerned that in 1975 they produced a document entitled, 'The Ugly Black Shadow'. They pictured several news items to illustrate the areas of concern. A statement inside the first page reads: "The martial arts of the Far East have long been popular in this country but there has recently been an enormous upsurge of interest. At the present time, participants exceed 100,000 and this figure continues to rise rapidly. This growth, however, carries with it many risks of which all responsible Authorities are fully aware.

    "Recognising this problem, the Government and the Sports Council have assisted in the formation of both the Briritish Karate Control Commission and the British Kung Fu Council. Both organisations try to ensure that their members maintain adequate standards of technical and social responsibility. The BKCC is fully established and can provide ready advice to Local Authorities on Karate matters and it is hoped that the recently formed BKFC will be able to provide a similar service in due course. In the meantime, enquiries concerning Kung Fu, and allied martial arts can be made via the BKCC offices. It is hoped that this arrangement will lead to the eventual formation of a British Federation of Martial Arts capable of dealing with all matters of common interest regarding Local Authorities and others. Local Authorities may also be interested to know that the BKCC is making attractive insurance cover available to both members and instructors and is inquiring into the desirability of cover against third party claims. They are also considering a system of supervision and control to deal with complaints received from the public or Local Authorities.

    "It is, therefore, important that all organisations, both public and private, responsible for the hiring of training halls, seriously consider confining their co-operation in this sphere to approved clubs. In this way, control and discipline can be retained and exploitation prevented in what are fundamentally worthwhile but potentially dangerous recreative pursuits."

    Denis Howell Esq., MP - Minister of State for Sport and Recreation - 22 April 1975

    So as you can see, from the mid-70's, the British Government made it quite clear that they took a dim view of unorganised martial art organisations and instructors. This led to the founding of the Martial Arts Commission, which included amongst its member organisation, the British Association of Korean Martial Arts, of which, Master Kim and his students were co-founding members of. I should also explain that the British Government also made it quite clear that they did not approve of or welcome the idea of British-based martial arts organisations being controlled from foreign shores - PLEASE RE-READ THAT PART AGAIN!

    Anyone who cares to carefully read the above article in its entirety [rather than cherry pick parts to try to pick holes in] should understand some of the reasons, at least, as to why Master Kim chose to form an umbrella organisation for disparate Korean Martial Arts that were not already catered for elsewhere or otherwise.

    When Master Kim was told by In Hyuk Suh that he must choose whether to continue to use the name Sulkido or Kuk Sool, Master Kim had little real choice as the name Sulkido was already listed in the UK as an umbrella organisation for the arts not controlled by the recognised organisations for Taekwondo and Hapkido in the UK. Master Kim would also have been going against what was, at that time at least, the Government's opposition to British organisations being controlled from another country. At that point, Master Kim and In Hyuk Suh parted ways and so Master Kim used the name Sulkido to distinguish his particular brand of Korean Martial Art. It being a mix of Kuk Sool [Kuk Sul], Hapkido and Taekwondo. The name Sulkido being made up from those three names, as you can see.

    Master Kim is no longer around to defend himself against anything anyone wants to say about him, so it is left to me, it would seem, to do the best I can to stand in his corner for on his behalf.

    Now please go away and let me get on with my life, even if you are unable (it would seem) to get on with yours.
     

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