Why sport fighting is not fighting

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Tom bayley, Sep 4, 2016.

  1. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    and neither is practicing martial arts in a hall.

    This clip has a rare and very good demonstration of the emotional reality of an attack.

    MOD Note. Video contains the type of language you'd expect in a violent confrontation.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E61jnJe_1SI"]The Reality Of Knife Attack - Deane Lawler @ the A.I.M Academy 2011 - YouTube[/ame]

    How do you prepare for the emotion of non consensual violence?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 4, 2016
  2. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Simulation. Adrenal response training. Identifying the patterns of violence. Assertiveness training.
     
  3. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Expose your students to it.

    I like the above clip because it demonstrates how sudden and violent this type of attack can be, while doing so in safety.

    You can also put on top notch headgear, body armour and actually have your students try and defend a real attack.

    For me though it starts with the verbal aggression and the first time you are exposed to it it's a real shock to the system.

    As adults we all know the swear words, but to have someone in your face screaming what they are going to do to you and with piercing eyes, chest puffed out, and perhaps pushing and shoving is a lot for a student to deal with.

    If an attack like this happens it's near on impossible to defend yourself, which is why I prefer blade awareness over knife defence.
     
  4. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    please expand on how you do your simulations

    what do you mean by this and how is it done?
     
  5. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Pad people up, assign them roles (best if the participants are unclear on the role of the others, but for general training you can do it as an attacker/defender drill). Do what's shown in the video.
    For adrenal stress training have somebody scream at them and shove them about while they attempt to control the situation.
     
  6. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    In my experience having a student who's a good aggressor is rare.

    We are generally nice people and acting the nasty thug isn't natural, so looking like they are going to tear your head off isn't a place most students want to go.

    It is then perhaps worth giving the aggressor a rough script to use.

    You can insert your own swear words, but have someone accuse another of scratching their car, touching their partners backside, spilling a pint, cutting them up in a car and so on.

    The aggressor has to really sell their intent. Enough to draw the adrenal reaction Ben mentioned.
     
  7. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    Can't emphasize this point enough , when I went down for a sim day with John the thing that really struck me was the difference a really believable bad guy made.
     
  8. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Apparently I make quite the villain.....
     
  9. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    When is violence ever consensual?

    Other than that, what others have already posted I agree with.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2016
  10. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Have you never seen two gypsies enter a tennis court or barn, shut and lock the doors behind then and have at it?

    You then of course have ring fights where both practitioners are fully aware of what's about to happen.
     
  11. Travess

    Travess The Welsh MAPper Supporter

    As Simon and Ben have already highlighted, you prepare by introducing it to your sessions, then by escalating the realism/intensity, (both verbally, as well as physically) and then you drill it, drill it, drill it!

    We run a drill exactly the same as the one shown in the video above (minus the eyes closed start) which we refer to as the '60 second murder drill' which is completely exhausting, pretty scary, when you think about the reality of it, and absolutely impossible to come out unscathed.

    Out of curiousity Tom, do run any 'knife defense' drills, and if so, how are they taught/run?

    ^^This, everyday of the week!

    Regards

    Travess
     
  12. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I don't consider acceptance of a likely outcome to be agreement. I don't think, even in a death match that the parties agree to let the other kill them.

    Edit: Sorry I posted too quickly. I forgot to state that consensual/non-consensual are more of legal terms. What I was really getting at is when does consensual turn to non-consensual? To prepare someone for SPEED of real world, providing the experience for quick recognition of when something turns from consensual to non-consensual is very important. You can't just teach someone to react to kill someone in self-defense without giving them the means to buy some time to determine the appropriate level of force. When someone comes up and puts their arm around you. It could be uncomfortable and that instant is the movement to go from zero to 100%. However, what possible actions can be done to provide a moment of safety to access the situation. Maybe the arm is your spouse just giving you an aggressive hug from surprise or maybe it is a group of attackers trying to drag you to someplace to rape you.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2016
  13. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Frequently

    Simon has used the gypsy example, but there are also mutual "step outside" conflicts, "square go" arrangements to "settle scores" and back in the day (greatly reduced now) there were "soccer firms" who had the sole purpose of arranging and setting up mass fights....even gang members will engage in this type of activity periodically

    In a self protection context this is essentially a different area, but even when we train we are coming together to a mutual level of violence....and in Sim days and related training that alone gives a massive adrenal hit if you are not familiar with it
     
  14. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Violence is also consensual in combat sports.
     
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    The adrenal hit is something that training must address and allow experience in.

    My complaint is about the use of consensual in terms of the discussion as something organized.

    Even in combat sport it is possible to turn to something undesirable. Training students for non-consensual is artificial and is something determined in the courts as to whether it was within the law or illegal.

    The core training in self-protection must address the ability to act quickly and appropriately under conditions when AGREED upon actions are taken too far. Otherwise you get the sort of "caught asleep" syndrome where people are not able to assess the situation as it should be.

    I'm not saying to be wired all the time, what I'm saying is always protect yourself (in any situation) and learn to go from zero to 100% in an instant.

    Self-protection is ALL the time, not just non-consensual or what ever it is labeled.
     
  16. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Unless you are in a legally sanctioned sporting event, a court doesn't care what level of violence you have agreed to.

    Consent in violence, looking at social interactions outside of a legal context, is a spectrum, and not always the same for both parties.

    You have the "step outside" thing, which may turn into "I never said your mates could join in" or "I never said you could kick me in the knackers", to the person who feels they can berate someone for engaging in violence against a spouse or stranger and then gets very upset when the violence turns on them.

    Role-Play is one thing, but I think the main attributes needing to be developed are the ability to think and plan while someone is trying to take your head off, and also the ability to think and plan while someone is sweet-talking you into a sucker-punch... basically always thinking and planning whatever else is going on. I'm still not convinced that role-play can ever replace actually experiencing that stuff, but I guess you have to start somewhere. The best course that I have found at de-escalating the interview stage (interview as in "it takes two to tango", and aggressors most often need some kind of behavioural cue before engaging in the violence they feel the need to enact) is to circumvent normal social rules and norms, and that is something very hard to do when acting out a scenario.

    As for assertiveness training, as recommended by Ben Gash CLF, that may be something needed by many, but some people need the opposite in order to stay out of trouble. It all depends on the person, and there is no such thing as a one-size-fits-all self-defence package.
     
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  17. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Actually here they tend to because under section 265 of the Criminal Code of Canada:

    So more often than not here unconsciously consensual fights as a result of a mutual monkey dance are treated as a Breach of the Peace, because if neither party attempted to withdraw nor attempted to show wanting no part in the following violence, then by implication it is consensual violence and cannot be assault.

    So unless someone does something particularly heinous there's no need to do anything other than toss them in lockup for the night which is generally the most that happens.
     
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  18. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    That's more like how I was looking at things.

    The first step is acceptance that something could happen to you. Then it is a matter of preparation on how to recognize, avoid, and then last resort if avoidance is not possible. The acceptance is an important part of the healing after a traumatic event as well as the planning.

    For example, if I accept I could get robbed at gun point, then my go to plan may be to just hand over my wallet. If that is the end of it, afterwards, I won't feel good about getting robbed but my plan worked in that it didn't escalate to getting killed. In a sense, I remained in control even though the outcome was overall negative.

    However, let's then say I'm being forced into a car at gun point. This is different decision given the idea is I could be transported to a placed with no witnesses and killed. I might decide ahead of time that I will fight the gunman while there are still witnesses around given knowledge of patterns of violence and likelihood of particular outcomes. In this case, the decision to fight could end up badly, but if I survive, the trauma could be less because I was somewhat in control, at least in control of my own decision made ahead of time.

    In ALL training, this element can be added to help. Say that we are rolling in BJJ class. At times have others jump in and start grabbing, punching and kicking you on the ground (with control). Of course there is warning ahead of time to help accept that this could happen. The point is now ANY time rolling, the student is developing awareness that multiple attackers could come in. Same thing with weapons, that a weapon could be drawn. Decisions can happen ahead of time as well.

    The idea is that instead of splitting up training time between sport and non-sport, between consensual and non-consensual or whatever labels we have. The self-protection is being developed all the time, for all the time, with only a few exceptions.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2016
  19. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    But at the same time, if you are in a sport class, then sport is what you would expect to be doing.

    I remember seeing something on Kajukenbo, maybe Fight Quest, where they showed that random attacks were part of training. Is this your experience too?
     
  20. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    It's different in the UK. If physical harm is a result, then consent is not a defence (beyond the kind of thing one would ask for in a tattoo, piercing or body modification place). This is mostly used in cases of BDSM and body modification [WARNING: Link mentions vaginas and BDSM acts]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consent_(criminal_law)#Consensual_activity
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2016

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