What does Ganseki Nage look like to you, Gary? I can visualize - from my very low level - at least a dozen different ganseki nage that are from different ryu, different levels, and against different attacks/situations. (Not saying I can do them, far from it). Also, does it really matter if it says Ganseki Nage or if it just says "you break the opponent" and your teacher (who has is part of the chain of transmission) explains it as a ganseki nage? In the written text for Koku, does it say "You begin with Ichimonji no kata, then go to jumonji no kata, and then hicho no kata"? Which level of Koyoku are you talking about, and against which attack? First of all, I assume we are not talking about going in with the hip as in judo for example. But second, you don't always enter in so deeply in Koyoku. And third, in some versions of kata ganseki you do enter in deeply, so they are not mutually exclusive. So, are you basing your practice of Koyoku on what you have seen Hatsumi sensei do in videos, or on 1-on-1 transmission with your master in this art? I've never said that Koyoku IS Ganseki Nage. And yes, you are right in that I don't have menyko kaiden and I most probably never will. But my teacher is a direct disciple of a person who does, and I trust what I learn from him. Of course my understanding changes (i.e. a progress, hopefully) all the time. I've been told and shown so by my teacher, and that's enough for me and weighs very heavily. Before I go any further, what kind of an answer are you looking for? Are you hoping for "Yes, in X it says the enemy grabs you and you do ganseki nage, zanshin."? Or are you asking in which ways it is possible to do Ganseki Nage in Gyokko Ryu and Shinden Fudo Ryu? From the many discussions you have taken part of here on MAP, I do hope you have realized that the kata in the Takamatsuden ryuha are not fixed patterns that only follow a few written down sentences? Because it is what I have understood from training under my teacher.
I for one am very happy that in the past six years my understanding has evolved and gotten deeper. It's a process and and a progress. When you're on the first step of the ladder, it's hard to see how many more steps there are. I'm sure of that my response in six years from now will be different than today. At least I hope so. And more importantly, I hope my physical understanding and performance of ganseki nage will be better and more deeper too. I cannot speak for this person as the description is very vague, but I would not go as far as saying that in ganseki nage the elbow is always placed behind the attackers elbow and in seoi nage the triceps placed closer to the shoulder joint. The text above could very well be used to differentiate between Ude Ganseki and Kata Ganseki. We don't always know at what level and to whom something is explained by the shihan. One thing is absolutely certain when it comes to the Takamatsuden ryuha - there are very few black or white areas, but a lot of shades of grey.
OK Will your avoiding the question now. How is it that 6 years ago you said that Koyoku is Seionage and now you state the opposite by saying... and then just two pages and less than 12 hours latter you now say... Please Will get your story correct, before I comment on the rest of your post.
Nope... Gary, you must be reading very sloppily. Where on earth did I ever say that Kokyoku IS Ganseki Nage or Seoi Nage or any nage for that matter? I said that there EXISTS a ganseki nage in Koyoku. Saying that Koyoku IS Ganseki Nage is like saying that Koku IS shuto. Or Yokuto IS keri age.
Personally I think everyone's trying to categorise the movement which, I think creates a bit of confusion In my experience things aren't consistently defined between different shihan and the distinctions between different waza are a bit blurry
Both look correct application to me. I don't know "Ninjutsu". But from the description, it sounds like we are talking about "under hook" here. The "under hook" is just a contact point. You can use your: - elbow joint to lift your opponent's shoulder, - arm to press down his shoulder, - forearm to lift his upper arm, - palm to push up his upper arm, - palm to hit on the back of his head and the press his head down, - palm to pull down his same side shoulder, - palm to pull down his opposite side shoulder, - ... You can also use your - hip to throw your opponent as "under hook hip throw", - leg to spring his single leg as "under hook leg spring", - leg to lift his single leg as "under hook leg lift", - leg to block his both legs as "under hook leg break", - leg to horse back kick his both legs as "under hook leg block", - leg to twist his leg as "under hook leg twist", - ... The "under hook" is a set of techniques. It's not a single technique.
Isn't there quite a simple answer to the OP's question on which ryu have ganseki nage? That being that most of the ryu do not actually have a kihon curriculum as such yet just the kata? Kihon Happo is sort of from gyokko ryu but, correct me if I'm wrong, it seems to be quite a late addition, as a teaching/learning tool. So the technique Ganseki Nage appears in a number of kata of the ryu yet is not listed as a separate technique. As are most other techniques. At least, this is my limited understanding. Regards, Tom.
As my name was mentioned... Last time I was present when Koyoku was being taught the visitors looked at the example and said "Oh, ganseki nage?" They were met with "No, not Ganseki Nage." As a response. Make of that what you will. In many of the rhuya kata there are no names given for the throw/lock. Only a description of how to set it up. People will categorize it based on their previous experiences.
Just a wild guess from an outsider... Maybe Koyoku (and many other kata) is actually the setup, the entry, the parts surrounding the finishing technique, and it doesn't much matter what the ending technique is so long as it meshes well with the setup? Or maybe this kata (or all kata) are simply arrangements of smaller techniques in such a way as to highlight or train some attribute or principle? In either of these cases, the technique itself doesn't matter because it's expected that you already grasp Ganseki Nage and can plug it in as needed. Which, as I recall, has been a common (and commonly misunderstood) theme in the Bujinkan.
Often the terms used to describe the particular waza within the form are chosen because they describe the biomechanics on uke Most people look at it from tori's pov which can lead to confusion
If you watch the old video of Takamatsu doing Ganseki on Hatsumi, and the version of Hatsumi doing it in the Kobudo no Kihon, and there are several videos of Nagato on the Takasegi website, they are all done differently, but with key similarities in affecting balance and easy of application, IMHO
Please don't, my Niten Bokuto cry when you do that and they are upset with me enough as it is because they haven't seen me in a while.
Okay YouKnowWho, here is the breakdown on the major problems with the two videos. In the first, he enters with his upper body behind his legs, basically leaving behind something that should be moving in unison. As such, he could be easier countered, it makes the throw more difficult and potentially injurious to oneself, and is poor mechanics. He really lifts up on the opponents arm in the beginning instead of driving him up with the elbow. It looks like he was combining a hip throw with a leg sweep, neither which are basic to this throw. Putting that extra bit of hip into the throw made the effects of his off-balancing a bit slow and ineffective. His weight is also more in the middle instead of to the side as it would be in the correct basic. It looks more like a tai otoshi technique from Kukishinden ryu(if I recall correctly) instead of ganseki. His left arm motion of opening and then moving sideways was also incorrect and unhelpful. Finally, he shouldn't be standing over his downed opponent looking down like that, easy way to get kicked in the grill. The second video was much worse. The first jodan uke to the punch was too parallel to the ground, making it ineffective and easily brushed aside. The pulling back of the lead leg is also bizarre. The scooping motion after the shuto(knife ridge) and backwards backpedaling to enter in for the strike is not the footwork used in this technique. He is really powering the throw and sweep whereas they should be much smoother and balanced. The idea is to throw him down headfirst, not to launch him. The tori is too stiff and his kamae are all wrong. In the other thread I mentioned some better clips of this technique as well as why we don't call it an underhook. You are entering under his arm but that in my mind doesn't automatically make it an underhook.
When I was taught this, it was more of a toss from the shoulder, along with an aligned twist from the hip. Frankly one of the harder ones to do correctly. Keeping the arm point up during the application as to bar the opponents arm, also a henke to this as being Ganseki Otoshi, a rotated drop of that arm with the hips, driving the opponent directly to the ground. Both of those videos looked like a koshi nage with ashi barai. Sorry for my funked Japanese. Doing my best
