Ganseki Nage question

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Kframe, Apr 9, 2014.

  1. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Ok Lets talk about ganseki Nage.

    One thing I don't understand is why we don't control the arm when we throw them.

    I am being taught to use my head and shoulders and my forearm to lock the elbow and lift them onto there toes. However my arm is not hooking there arm or shoulder but upright above it, with my other hand up in the air as well.

    Why is it that we don't have a more effective control of the arm? It seams like it would be ease to pull the arm free if your only control point is your head and shoulders.

    Are all the throws like this?

    I did ask, but cant remember his answer, so ill ask again on Saturday and post back.
     
  2. Pankeeki

    Pankeeki Valued Member

    ok

    Then you are doing it wrong

    Good luck lifting a resisting opponent on their toes, not relevant for ganseki nage, the lock is to break more then to trow

    If you do it correctly you can't pull free


    nope

     
  3. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Well sensei seams to be emphasizing getting them on their toes. Which makes no sense. I wonder if he is emphasizing lifting on to the toes, so that I really sink in the lock and off balance.. Hmm.

    It just feels like the setup for it is awkward.

    Which kata is it featured in, id love to youtube some of them so I can see how it is setup..
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2014
  4. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Hi Kframe

    It seems to me that many of your questions come from you taking a sensible, critical eye to what you're shown

    Please always keep this and don't get pulled into the "trust me" crap

    However, most times it seems that either:
    - You're being shown wrong. In which case find a different teacher
    - You're understanding it wrong. Quite likely given you're quite new to the art. In which case ask your teacher to show you. Posting on forums is likley to yield much less for your time and effort than someone showing you in person
    - You're not quite seeing the set up and or context/situation when a particular technique is best used. I see this a lot - ie people trying to apply a technique out of context or assessing it from a different context

    Hope that makes sense
     
  5. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    To make it worse is that both instructors do it differently. One has the setup high, and the other low with my elbow touching there sides. I have been shown 2 different methods both saying they are correct. Its awfully confusing..

    Regarding the Lifting on the toes. They would resist the heck out of the throw if I didn't lock the elbow and lift them on there toes. Problem is, as was pointed out, good luck doing that on someone who resists.
     
  6. peterc8455

    peterc8455 Valued Member

    This is some good advice.

    If you really want to search on the forum, there are some old threads concerning ganseki nage.

    I will say that IMO ganseki nage is one of the more difficult techniques and there is less margin for error. It is all about control and if you don't have it you aren't going to force it to work.
     
  7. ninjedi

    ninjedi Valued Member

    If you met two more instructors, chances are you would be shown an addition two more ways to go about it. That's the thing about having eight techniques but infinite variations of each.

    Are you doing it from kamuch (deadlock), or a grab? (or punch?)
     
  8. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    From the weird clinch thing. Kumiuchi or some such. THey have us using our heads and shoulder to raise there arm up and lock there elbow. Then you push up with your forearm on there arm and it brings them to there toes. THen you do the throw.

    I don't understand why this lock and brining them to the toes is so important as, your not likely to get a resisting person on there toes or get the lock to hold.
     
  9. ninjedi

    ninjedi Valued Member

    Ah, the muppet stick. That is certainly one way of doing it. Believe it or not, you can take someone's balance in any direction, including up or down. And it doesn't really matter if someone is resitting you or not, if you get their balance (which is sort of the point of what we do), you win.

    If you really want your mind blown ask to see it demonstrated on both sides/arms.
     
  10. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    There 's this whole thing about them not just spontaneously resisting once their balance is taken though, they tend to do it before hand too.
     
  11. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    My issue with the throw is the lock and control before the throw. It just seams so awkward. Why am I sticking there arm in my neck? It is like, why cant I just bend there elbow and grab the bicep.
     
  12. hatsie

    hatsie Active Member Supporter

    Why not bugger the martial arts and hit them on the head with a bottle?

    I see people doing what they call ganseki nage, which is sort of an ape like movement in a hoko posture, this is followed by that silly raising up bit, and then the touching their opposite toe ( trying to) twisting at the waist, which does the throw. It is garbage totally and won't ever work.
    What I was shown was more about the natural turning motion created in their arm/ spine by the placement of your hand/ arm on their tricep and naturally turning 90 degrees ( parallel with them). Then a hyper extension of their leg as you enter and some rotation from your torso with a straight back.

    The natural forces (torque) created effortlessly be the movements are incredible, ' if do right no can resist' It took me a few years to get my head round it and do an approximation of it.

    If your not enjoying your training, or ( as it sound like) your teacher is crap, LEAVE, your burning daylight son don't waste it. Or ( and I hate to say this, but it is so fitting) ' shut up and train!

    Edit
    And as for this bit :eyeroll: you don't! You always go to them, you don't bring the mountain to Mohammed !
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2014
  13. Kobudo

    Kobudo Valued Member


    I don't recognise the OP's explanation of Ganseki nage as anything I've ever learned (never trained Buj, but have GBK) Hatsie's description is more in line with my understanding
     
  14. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Well I have quit my class as I feel that my needs are not being met. Despite that I like the art.

    Hatsie you hit on the problem, I was being shown two very different versions. I found it endlessly confusing.

    Thanks again for the advice guys.
     
  15. Kave

    Kave Lunatic

    Are you quitting martial arts entirely, or are you looking for a new art?
     
  16. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    I am looking for a new art. What drew me to BBT was the weapons. I have tried a Escrima class and LOVED IT. They assured me in no uncertain terms that there will be plenty of sparring and pressure testing.

    I wanted a weapons first art because people attack people with weapons of all types. I want to atleast have some skill in dealing with that.

    Since the building houses a karate and JJJ and Judo club im likely to join judo and or karate. Doing all for one low price.

    I just wanted to add. Hatsie, the way you describe as the correct way to do ganseki nage was the way the assistant instructor taught me to do it. The head instructor did it the move confusing way.
     
  17. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Not sure what you are talking about. This online clip use "under hook" with "leg block".

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6s_DxQAVIeU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6s_DxQAVIeU[/ame]

    This one also use "under hook" but with "horse back kick".

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppa2VHnI3SI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppa2VHnI3SI[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2014
  18. hatsie

    hatsie Active Member Supporter

    Thank you, that's two crap examples.
    What I'm talking about uses subtle taijutsu, which by placing your hand/ arm correctly, 'rolls' their arm over as you turn. ( you end up in a similar looking position superficially, but they are very different!). [ Everyone wants to immediatly turn there palm up waving ' hiya' which kills it!] Then you hyper extend their leg/ legs ( depending) not stepping infront of him ( easily reversible) then a HORIZONTAL rotation from the hips wit a straight core. I can see how this crap came about by lack of understanding from 'premature' teachers
     
  19. kouryuu

    kouryuu Kouryuu

    Exactly, neither Someya, Ishizuka or Nagato sensei's have ever shown Ganseki Nage like that
     
  20. hatsie

    hatsie Active Member Supporter

    Cheers norm, I'm omitting details for indie vultures btw :D

    It's incredible there's a whole other 'bujinkan' who think your nuts mentioning stuff like this :)
     

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