A safe effective weapon disarm that does not hurt the attaker

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Tom bayley, Dec 19, 2014.

  1. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    A teacher recently asked me how to disarm a 12 year old student who attacked another student with a pair of scissors. The student was not responding to voice instructions. I said pick up a chair and hit them with it.

    I personally believe that one should not be obliged to put one’s own life at risk in order to protect the well being of an attacker.

    This however is not the view taken by education establishments. The teacher said that they were required to disarm the student without leaving any form of mark on the student.

    Given this unrealistic requirement I suggested the following: The student is holding the scissors in their right hand.

    Move to the students outside right. With your left hand lightly slap down the students forearm. Allow friction to bring your hand to rest near the student’s right wrist. Grip the wrist. This provides enough control for you to grip the wrist directly with the other hand. This double grip allows you to control the students arm.

    The left hand should continue to grip the wrist. The right hand should transition from wrist to the student’s hand. The right hand should push on the back of the student’s hand. The student’s hand should bend inward towards them. Increasing the pressure should force the hand to open allowing you to remove the weapon.

    I recommended this approach because the teacher has no martial arts experience, so it has to be simple, because the technique begins by first establishing control over the weapon and because it has a small risk of causing injury to the attacker.

    What approach would you recommend?
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2014
  2. Shmook

    Shmook Valued Member

    If you're gripping strongly enough to control the arm, you're going to leave a mark, even though not permanent...
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2014
  3. GoldShifter

    GoldShifter The MachineGun Roundhouse

    That's very hard to answer considering that a "mark" is dependent on what the establishment defines as a mark. Even blocking too hard with an outward block could bruise. My old high school used to hold that same view, when I was attacked I just used joint locks. It's solely dependent on the force you apply and also the attacker's level of resistance. It is arguable that the attacker's resistance could have led to their own downfall if placed into a lock.

    There are too many variables in the teacher's question.
    Is the student experienced?
    Is the student on any kind of substance that could block the feeling of pain?
    Size of student.


    I personally would, given the student lunges and the teacher has competent reaction times. Slide backward into a forward stanceish and push my right hand down in a sort of open handed lower cross block. With the left hand, assume wrist control. A sudden jerk of the arm, twisting it to the left, counter clockwise, should give the student a good enough of a shock of pain to open up their hand. If not, the atleast you have wrist control, and with that control the weapon.
     
  4. FunnyBadger

    FunnyBadger I love food :)

    The scissors do not care how old/Young big/small someone is they retain the capacity to cause damage regardless. Ensure your safety first and the victims safety second then lastly comes the attackers safety. I would reccomend that the teacher try's to get everyone else out of the way and summons help/police and to make sure that any intervention they feel they can make is swift and committed.

    I personaly would not reccomend a teacher try to attempt a standing disarm of a dangers object unless they have extensive experience training for that. I have done some disarming through jujitsu and am a large bloke but I'm not sure if id rush in to disarm anyone as I don't feel I have enough skill/ experience all I would be doing would be putting my self at risk. A totaly untrained teacher certainly doesn't have have the required skill to do this safely.

    If I had to reccomend a course of direct action id go with something along the lines of the chair. Might sound a bit harsh here but I'd go for the easiest disarm and take the consequences. I'm not saying you should do anything to intentionally harm the child in those circumstances but if they have a weapon (improvised or otherwise) you can't dilute your techniques, they are still a dangerous armed person and should be dealt with as such because they still pose a serious threat. As I said above the scissors do not care who's holding them.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2014
  5. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Picking up a chair and defend yourself with it. It makes a great shield. That's what I'd do.
     
  6. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    I'd take the scissosrs from them forcefully and get the case tried in the media, but that's just me.

    Assuming I'm a much gentler person than I am: (This is a tricky one to explain, so I drew a picture)

    [​IMG]

    Student in blue.

    a) Standing ahead and to the right of the student, I would grab the outside of the wrist with my right arm

    b) I would pull them forward as I rotate to my right, throwing my left arm over theirs and securing their arm by having my left arm hook underneath and squeezing - kind of like a whizzer grip. This should leave you in position c.

    c) force the wrist into flexion (should be pretty easy on a 12 year old), shake the scissors loose from their grip and then work out what the hell you're supposed to do next.

    Edit: This technique and its variants have been extensively pressure tested on my family during battles for the TV remote. No siblings were seriously harmed in the development of this technique.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2014
  7. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member


    Thanks for making this very important point. One should always get a better qualified person / backup to handle the situation if possible.

    In this case the child is prone to snapping and attacking other students with no warning. The teacher did not have time to remove the other students to a place of safety and therefore felt obliged to actively intervene.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2014
  8. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I'd get everyone else out of the room and lock the student with the scissors in it on their own. Leave them to calm down.

    Mitch
     
  9. Alansmurf

    Alansmurf Aspire to Inspire before you Expire Supporter

    Option 1 Chair ......

    Option 2 Chair ......

    unrealistic to ask some one to intervene in a physical confrontation with a weapon involved ...and not leave a mark !!!
     
  10. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Given Tom is UK based I'd suggest that the restrictions the teacher believes themselves to be under are likely not legal.
     
  11. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Given that some 12 year olds are a decent size nowadays it's a risky proposition.


    Give out safety scissors at the start of class? :D


    Sorry most stuff I can think of involves "do damage".
     
  12. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Is this in a mainstream school?
     
  13. Alansmurf

    Alansmurf Aspire to Inspire before you Expire Supporter

    DW ....that is a given with you !!
     
  14. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    I once got told that even my haircut was combative. :D
     
  15. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Yeah I'm with Ben. If a student is attacking another with deadly or potentially very damaging force I don't think the teacher is under any obligation to be gentle or safe guard the attacking student in order to prevent that crime. At least no more obligation than is already written into law (ie, using reasonable force).
    There's a lot of nonsense in schools (from teachers and students) about what teachers can do to defend themselves (or others) but as far as I know the law doesn't change in a school just because it's a school.
    Especially given recent events that happened in Leeds.
    Sadly many schools will encourage nonsense and try to hamper what teachers do because it saves them headaches later on when idiot parents complain.
    Ed Balls tried to clarify things fairly recently.

    http://www.theguardian.com/education/2010/apr/05/teachers-can-use-force-says-balls
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2014
  16. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    My missus is a teacher and we've always discussed that there's what the school would like here to do, what the government would advise her to do, what legally she should do and what personally she would do when confronted by violence.
    And sometimes those competing views may not match each other (even though the law should stand across the board imho).
    And knowing her as I do "not leaving a mark" isn't high on her list of concerns if one kid was attacking another with a blade.
    Sadly though even when a teacher has done the right thing a school will always tend to side with the pupil and put a teacher through a stressful discipline procedure which can put teachers off from doing the right thing in future.
     
  17. Bujin_Budoka

    Bujin_Budoka Valued Member

    Fire extinguisher could be an option, however you run the risk of the student inhaling it. Powerful strobe light is a good distraction to temporarily blind the student, I've seen them in use as a weapon attachment but can be used alone. This does however need some preparation. There are no hands on techniques that don't have the potential to leave a mark.
     
  18. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I've wondered before, if a place of work has a policy on violence that's impractical and conflicts with legal rights (so here a school may not like the idea of hitting a student but there are situations where its legally justified) would the business be allowed to discipline and even sack you for acting within your legal rights?
     
  19. FunnyBadger

    FunnyBadger I love food :)

    If you could justify your actions and legaly back them up in court then you could easily take them to court for it and have a good chance of winning. Im sure you could still be internally disciplined though but not sacked as they could claim you acted against their procedures.

    I'm no expert on employment law but I don't think you could be fired if you could prove your actions were lawfull.
     
  20. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    You can be disciplined and sacked for all sorts of things that aren't illegal from all sorts of jobs.

    Mitch
     

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