Pattern thoughts

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Smitfire, Aug 31, 2016.

  1. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Although it's been years since I graded for my yellow stripe and yellow belts my daughter is currently going through the grades and that's given me some insight I'd missed previously.

    Why does saju-jirugi exist? What's it for?
    My daughter found chon-ji quite tricky to learn because it is so similar to saju-jirugi. She found getting the direction of the turns very tricky because she'd already learnt to turn another way in saju-jirugi. It seems like a superfluous pattern (and get out of here with the "it's an exercise not a pattern"...calling it an "exercise" doesn't stop it from being exactly like a pattern).
    By comparison she's learnt the sequence of Dan-gun much quicker because the moves are more unique and recognisable where they occur in the pattern.
    Even the turns in saju-jirugi are unlike the sorts of turns you get in other higher grade patterns. Whereas the turns in chon-ji are replicated right through the other patterns.
    Why shouldn't white belts just go straight into learning chon-ji?
    I just can't see a reason that saju-jirugi is in there at the start.
     
  2. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    I'm in total agreement with you. Back when I taught in an ITF-style dojang, the only logical reason I could think of for its inclusion was to fatten up the grading syllabus (which, you might agree, is wafer thin at beginner levels). Some organisations such as the UKTA have half a dozen versions of it.
     
  3. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I mean...why not just ditch learning a pattern for yellow stripe?
    Personally I'd grade people in their first grading on things like how well they tie their belts, form a fist, stand in chunbi and bow. Stuff they'll have to do for years if they stick with it.
     
  4. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I'm not a fan of it at all, for precisely the reasons you mention.

    I use it as a lead into a basic parry/lock drill we do, but honestly I think the drill has more value than Saju in some ways.

    I'm happy with people learning some type of pattern for their first grading, but I'd rather it had more in common with later patterns.

    Mitch
     
  5. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Yeah it could be quite a basic pattern, maybe just a punch and a couple of blocks linked by 90 and 180 degrees turns? Maybe it could be called jon-chi or something?
     
  6. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Not sure how you'd cope mind, you still haven't mastered the quote button :D

    Mitch
     
  7. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    "Not sure how you'd cope mind, you still haven't mastered the quote button"

    I only do it that way to annoy you pacifically.
     
  8. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Pacifically? Like, from across the ocean? Or do you mean you just like to annoy Mitch in a calm and peaceful manner? :D
     
  9. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I know Mitch get's annoyed when people cant get there grammar and speeling done proper.
     
  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Fo reelz? i needs to axe him bout dat
     
  11. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Infamy! Infamy! You've all got it infamy!

    Mitch :D
     
  12. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Care to share the parry and lock drill Mitch? See if we can get some goodness out of saju jirugi?
     
  13. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I've no idea what patterns you are talking about, but isn't learning to turn in the opposite direction a good thing?
     
  14. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    You'll be familiar with much of it from Willie Lim, Stuart Anslow or Iain Abernethy, but I'll try and film it for you :)

    Mitch
     
  15. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Of course. But the patterns are so similar and come one after the other right in the first 3-6 months of training that they can be confusing to some people I think. I mean we could debate the utility of learning patterns ad infinitum but I think if you are designing something for beginners to learn there are better ways to do it rather than having two very similar patterns right at the start.
    I may be wrong but I don't even think the first method of turning learnt crops up in any other pattern thereafter.
     
  16. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    So maybe they should have turning in both directions in one pattern for beginners?

    Or is that heresy?
     
  17. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Entirely valid point. The tae kwon do patterns could be better designed imho.
     
  18. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Valued Member

    General Choi's teaching methodology was to teach the fundamental motions before teaching the pattern which contained the motion.

    For those with the "Both Direction" issue there is a Right and Left of Both 4 direction punch and 4 direction block. The turning in the 4 direction Punch and block is limited to a pivot on a single foot. The same foot for the right side exercise and the other foot for the left Side exercise. Each of the turns for this exercise is a 1/4 turn with a pivot on what was the rear foot. Chon Ji # 3 for instance is a half turn on the rear foot. IMO that is a natural progression. Interspersed is a quarter turn pivot on the rear foot.

    Dan Gun ads a 3/4 turn and Do San a Full turn. Again, a natural progression.
     
  19. mjl

    mjl ITF Taekwon-Do (1st Dan)

    Good for catching and demonstrating problems with incorrect pivoting, for example, pivot on the ball of the foot and finish in the starting position. Pivot on the heel of the foot and finish somewhere else :)

    Also good for developing patterns punching technique, square shoulders, dropping into the punch, keeping rear foot heel on the ground when stepping forward and so on. There's a lot that can go wrong with saju-jirugi.
     
  20. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    That's all fair enough but surely that applies to every pattern and chon-ji would do just as good as job with that stuff?
     

Share This Page