Counters to throws

Discussion in 'Ju Jitsu' started by Doppleganger, Feb 5, 2007.

  1. Doppleganger

    Doppleganger Valued Member

    Hello peeps.

    What type of counters to common throws (hip throw, bodydrop, etc) do you practice? I've heard for many clubs that this is something only tackled near or at dan grade so perhaps some of you haven't done these yet. I particularly like the counter to hip throw where you place your left hand on the right shoulder blade of your opponent as he begins to slide his hips underneath you and instead of dumping you, you roll him over as you fall to the ground. You have the option to lock his arm as you fall but of course you'd relax this (hopefully at least) in training. Not a counter you'd do all the time but I like it. :)

    Why aren't counters to throws introduced earlier in the 'standard' jujitsu syllabus? IMO they should be.
     
  2. DokanDojo

    DokanDojo Banned Banned

    Re:

    We introduced counters to thows already at 4 Kyu orange belt since we emphasize both self-defence and fighting in our curriculum.

    My personal favourites against hip throws are tani otoshi and te guruma.
     
  3. Shiho-Nage

    Shiho-Nage I'm okay to go.

    Our school has done counters to throws and locks (not fully set) since day one. They also do counters to counters.

    The school is singularly focused on self-defense. Everything is about practicality.

    From what I recall we've done counters to ippon seoi nage, koshi nage, harai goshi, hammer lock and a handful of others that I am forgetting at the moment.
     
  4. Cosmo Kramer

    Cosmo Kramer Valued Member

    hip throws, foot throws, others
     
  5. Keikai-Tsutsumi

    Keikai-Tsutsumi New Member

    We train and grade techiques for when a person resists or tries a counter. There is an extensive grading of this as part of Nidan.

    Most grades have techniques that illustrate changing because of a person resisting or countering. Our main emphasis on avoiding counters is to teach people to unbalance from the first contact and allow no possibility of resistance or counter.
     
  6. Garibaldi

    Garibaldi Valued Member

    Sorry shiho-nage, not meaning to pick on you specifically, but why is a school focused "singularly on self defence" training counters to throws & locks? The techniques you have mentioned are fairly skilled throws & unlikely to be used by anyone other than a trained martial artist. Surely your teacher doesn't believe harai goshi is a common attack that you will need to defend against!?

    In answer to the original question, we introduce counters to throws at blue belt level (2nd kyu) after the student has a reasonable understanding of how the attacking technique works, and therefore why & how it can be countered - it is at this stage also that we expect to see a fuller appreciation of the original technique and the use of combination attacks/flowing from one technique to another following resistance etc
     
  7. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    In Goshindo Tai Jitsu we cover counters at the time of teaching the throw, as they are intrinsically linked to each other.

    Common counters to throws of the hip throw variety include dropping the weight, backcasts and wedges.
     
  8. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    For a throw to be effective the kuzushi (weakpoint of balance) must be attacked. An advanced practisioner shall be more knowledgeable of these and can use this knowledge to counter any throw by a novice.When teaching a throw we often point out that because the novice is NOT attacking the kuzushi he is vulnerable to a counter technique. Basic principle NEVER ATTEMPT TO THROW SOMEONE WHO HAS NOT BEEN UNBALANCED PROPERLY FIRST.
    If you suceed in unbalancing him a counter is most difficult.


    regards koyo
     
  9. Shiho-Nage

    Shiho-Nage I'm okay to go.

    No worries, not feeling picked on.

    My first assumption would be that learning the counter is germane to learning the technique. Its a natural extension that occasionally when your partner moves in for position for an ippon seoi nage/koshi nage that you drop your center, widen your stance and push off their waist/side a bit to block the setup. We train the throws more than we do the counter but we are made aware of simple but effective moves to counter a number of throws/locks.

    Another reason might be the 'better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it' philosophy. While your average person out there may not have any martial arts training that's not to say you'll never need to defend against someone that does.

    This is just conjecture on my part as I haven't asked my instructor specifically why we learn counters to throws and locks.
     
  10. Lily

    Lily Valued Member

    Counters to throws are not introduced until students have learnt and practiced, practiced, practiced the foundations of our JJJ syllabus.

    Once we're about 5 months into training we start learning simple counters, putting together what we've learnt about body mechanics, simple principles of physics etc.

    Obviously as we spar from the start students will get the chance to put these counters into practice, learn from senior students and try the counters out amongst other things. You can see the difference between a student who has spent more time practicing a technique, its variations, possibilities, angles etc. compared to a newer student.
     
  11. Geoff Moore

    Geoff Moore New Member

    Last edited: Feb 25, 2007
  12. Sever

    Sever Valued Member

    We tend to work on the counters when we're taught the throw. If we're not shown it, we tend to work it out later in the session when we're doing randori anyway
     
  13. Oversoul

    Oversoul Valued Member

    Geoff Moore, you do know that you don't need to put your name in the post, right? I mean, it's not annoying--it's okay if you want to, but it's just kind of funny that you edited it with "orgot to put name in post."
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2007
  14. Geoff Moore

    Geoff Moore New Member

    Thanks for the info oversoul, did you like the link?
     
  15. Oversoul

    Oversoul Valued Member

    Some good counters in there. That they did them SO slowly in some parts was amusing. I've done that type of exercise, but usually never THAT slowly...
     
  16. kensei1984

    kensei1984 Panda Power!

    you have to be darn quick to pull off those counters, good ones tho'.
     
  17. Adamutto

    Adamutto New Member

    in my club counters are elarnt all the way through belts but come black belt an almost kata like eprformance is required showing each throw with around 3 counters to it taking it to different throws, which has to be performed rather fluently without stopping to think. im green at the moment studying the blue and white belt, where its mostly strikes, but i train with a blackbelt and i have a pretty good knowledge to then as having them done on me and having a go myself. it goes abit like

    and oppoenet hip throws you, so you counter it with a body drop (pretend it fails) so try a leg thorw (pretend it fails) then take them into a hock, the oppenent gets up again and tries another technique.
     
  18. jujitsuka07

    jujitsuka07 Body by Pizza Hut!

    Does anyone here do counters to Kote Gaeshi or Nikkajou/Nikkyou?
     
  19. DokanDojo

    DokanDojo Banned Banned

    Yes, we use counters to these techniques in our system.
    Counters to kote gaeshi are for example:

    Waki gatame 2 kyu
    Ude kime nage 2 Dan
    One handed uki waza 3 Dan

    Of course all counters have to be quick. These techniques requires a lot timing and randori-practise.
     
  20. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    I don't think you can "escape" a leg sweep by just raising your leg "straight up". Your opponent can bend his sweeping leg and stick on your ankle. The higher that you raise up your leg, the higher that his leg follows. When you can't raise your leg any higher (you are standing on one leg at this moment), he can just pull your shoulder backward and you will be down.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2009

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