Todays SD Situation

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Simon, Oct 30, 2014.

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  1. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Sitting upstairs in McDonalds today waiting for my hot chocolate to cool and I hear shouting from outside.

    I take a look out of the window and see 4 guys, the ring leader of which was mouthing off and posturing.

    It was all there, splayed arms, neck pecking, extreme language and so on.

    It was aimed at one lad, but hadn't gone mono-syllabic, so I figured I had a bit of time.

    I wasn't wearing my cape and I didn't fancy breaking the window, so I grabbed my bag and took a stroll outside.

    I thought I'll go up to the guy on his own and say something along the lines of "sorry I'm late, let's go", nod him a wink and get him out of there, his fault or not.

    As I got outside it was clear that this option wasn't open to me. The guy on his own had started neck pecking and pointing, so no point turning his anger on me.

    I took a position close enough to watch and called the police and to step in if needed, but far enough away they couldn't hear me conversation.

    I made sure I looked as though I was on a business call. Gesturing with my free hand, turning toward and away from the group - just enough to answer call centre questions - pacing up and down etc.

    Once I knew the police were on their way and it had calmed down enough to convince me the physical thread was over I went on my way.

    Why the post?

    Well it's important to recognise the signs before the fight starts.

    The posturing, the neck pecking, splayed arms, the mono-syllabic speech etc.

    Even when making the call to the police I made care to use body language to stay on watch, but appear elsewhere.

    Learn Cooper's colour code or similar and also if you do make a call to the police, watch your back when walking away.

    There were 4 guys (+1), so I walked away, went into a shop, came out and crossed the road just to be sure.

    And my hot chocolate went un-drunk.

    This event goes completely under the radar in terms of how it made me feel.

    There was no adrenaline rush, no threat to me, and it was my choice to go outside to assist if need be.

    This decision isn't to be recommended and was in part research on my part.

    I could, and you should, have remained in McDonalds.

    I've not posted this to be smart, but to highlight how you should learn to recognise situations and how you should act yourself if you end up being close to a situation that could turn nasty.
     
  2. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    If it was anyone from my generation on the sidelines they'd have whipped they're phones out..... To record it. :(
     
  3. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    These videos are increasingly being used in court evidence, so this is another thing to consider when deciding on a course of action.

    Defending yourself is one thing, but there is a fine line before you become the aggressor and if it's there for the jury to see, then you may have a problem.
     
  4. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    What on Earth were you playing at?






































    Why would you drink that filth McDonald's calls hot chocolate?
     
  5. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Being a good witness is one of the best things anyone can do - very well handled Simon
     
  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Well played Simon. And nice one for posting this, it's very instructive as to how awareness is most helpful - rather than stories about actual fighting.

    I have a question though - was a game plan for physical intervention going through your head while you were observing? Or were you resolved to observe and report only?
     
  7. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    That was a really interesting post to read.

    I was going ask about you mentioning that you were standing by ready to step in if needs be and ask if you knew what you might have tried to do in advance, but David pretty much beat me to it..

    Do you think your presence outside actually made any difference to how things resolved? If the same situation happened again, would you stay inside as you suggested or would you do the same thing and gone outside (given your initial idea of walking over and doing the "sorry I'm late" trick)?
     
  8. baby cart

    baby cart Valued Member

    Good call.

    Doing what the situation dictates, updating it as new data comes in, and not "going out of your pay grade", just do as much as necessary.

    Recognition and diagnosis plays a very big part on decisions and actions taken. But not many people have the experience to hove the first two. Or rather they don't want to hone them, too much hassle when one can just complain later and strut "I have my rights!" :bang:
     
  9. Rhythmkiller

    Rhythmkiller Animo Non Astutia

    I have actually used this a couple of times in the past in the pub with girls trying to fend off would be suitors. Generally i go up and jump in the middle and say something along the lines of "Hey cus" or "hey Sis, who's your friend" -

    They play along and you get a girlfriend for the night. Has worked on two occasions, of course i was younger and could do anything at the point and fear wasn't an issue. Also environmental conditions were well observed, my home town nightclub, friends all around me, familiarity with the bouncers and well aware that i'm not as drunk as the menace is. Really stupid thing to do but when your young you take risks.

    Baza
     
  10. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    My first thought was to try and walk through and catch the attention of the single guy, say something to him and we both leave.

    As I approached it was really obvious this action wasn't open to me.

    He was posturing back and if I'd have intervened at this point his aggression could have turned on me.

    I walked between both parties, but only as a pedestrian, not as someone who was going to intervene.

    I wasn't particularly on alert at this point, there was no threat to me and I was happy that me being there hadn't drawn any unwanted notice.

    I postured as though on a business call and only turned to face the 4 youths when asked a question by the police call centre operative.

    Would I have stepped in. Yes, but only if the guy on his own had been under threat.

    Was it my intention to step in. No. I was of more use giving a detailed description and I think if my desire had been to break up the situation it could have ended differently.

    Not perhaps aggressively, but with aggression shown towards me.

    I've tried to reply as objectively as I was yesterday and tried to avoid any, "I would have stepped in", type of stance.

    There were slight butterflies in the belly at some point, but I knew that to be an understanding of the situation, rather than fear or nerves.

    Edit: Strangely enough in class yesterday and the instructor mentioned how the culture now was to whip out a phone and record such a situation.

    I recalled this story and how it may, as Chadderz suggested, be a generational thing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2014
  11. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    1)Stay in the business establishment
    2)Phone the police out of sight.
    3)When police arrived, get a good view and get more chocolate


    or


    Whip out one of Hannibal's Avitar images
     
  12. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    I don't get it......How was it or would it of been SD?

    Simon deliberately put himself ,or could have, in the situation. So any encounter would not have been SD. It's a commendable thing to do , don't get me wrong.

    But.....What was the history of the guys involved and the reason for what was going on? The lone guy could have started it....he could of done something that deserved the attention from the others. The full situation is not known.

    I just want to bring some perspective and say it's not always simple and good guy v bad guys....these things need to be considered.
     
  13. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Simon is allowed to act (and use reasonable force) in the prevention of a crime (in this case potentially a breach of the peace or assault followed by battery). His actions were geared towards that. If any person had attempted to use force against him while doing so any force he used either preemptively or otherwise could legitimately have been cited as self defence.

    How is SD involved in what he did? He took steps to intervene and make sure help was on the way while not making himself a target. That can be considered as self defence.
     
  14. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Maybe you could title it differently, it matters not.

    The thread is maybe a little less about the actions of the "gang" and more about one's course of action, before, during and after an event, so self defence.

    I did deliberately go out to access and intervene if necessary, however, on getting outside it was obvious my verbal or physical intervention wasn't necessary.
    I would therefore argue that I wasn't "deliberately in the situation". My actions throughout were unobserved by any party.

    I personally don't think this is relevant.

    This was in a pedestrian high street used by the young, old, children, parents etc, so I thought I'd go down and maybe stop something I saw building up to a physical coming together.

    It wasn't about taking sides and finding out who was in the right or wrong. That is maybe a police matter.

    As I've said, I wasn't interested in taking sides. My decision not to intervene took less than two seconds. I was best served by all in the area by calling this in to the police.
     
  15. Alansmurf

    Alansmurf Aspire to Inspire before you Expire Supporter

    Simon ...

    Stop it ...

    watched a video today of a 17 year old stab one poor guy once in the heart and he died, he aslo stabbed another young man in the chest twice and back twice...totally unprovoked...

    Use utmost care ...

    Smurf
     
  16. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I should add that this thread isn't about me, but more about actions taken and what could and should be done in similar situations.

    That said I am more than happy to have my actions called to task.

    Alansmurf, I've been on jury service for the last two weeks and I know I don't need to tell you this, but without going into details, courts don't like knives, even if they're not used.
     
  17. Alansmurf

    Alansmurf Aspire to Inspire before you Expire Supporter

    Stop it.... meant dont put yourself at risk buddy ....

    Victim , aggressor , saviour triasngle can change so quickly in thos situations ... you could have ended up 1 V 5 !!!

    Jsut sayin !!!

    Watch your back as i am sure you did from the way it unfolded...

    Smurf
     
  18. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Self defense is about prevention or defuse...why can't people understand that

    But, I still would not have "directly" put myself in harms way at all possible

    It is hard not to allow yourself to not get "involved" in some way

    (I have helped many a "damsel in distress")
     
  19. HarryF

    HarryF Malued Vember

    For me, self defence is about standing up for what you believe in as well as physically protecting your self (and loved ones, and "innocents", and property, and whatever). Everyone has their own balance of desire to intervene vs risk of intervention, seems to me like you did what was right for you at the time, nice one.

    Thanks for sharing Simon
     
  20. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    None at all, because I wasn't seen as even as an onlooker.

    Body language hopefully made it look like I was on the phone to either work, or an acquaintance, rather than someone watching the event while on the phone to the police.

    I'd go outside again.
     
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