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  #46  
Old 28-Mar-2017, 12:39 AM
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No, I think that naiveté can produce art that resonates with a wider audience than a more considered and academic approach in some cases. If it were purely a technical endeavour, then each of George Lucas' films would be more popular than the last.
I mean, I don't think it was solely Lucas' technical achievement. Actually, the less Lucas has to do with a movie, the better, it seems. I think there's a lot of luck in getting a movie to come together, but at the end of the day all of the elements that make it function are discrete, technical, and reproducible efforts on the part of people who made the movie.

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The quality of sci-fi concept artists was also at an all-time high, and of course Industrial Light And Magic provided visuals that surpassed pretty much everything except 2001.
I mean... even 2001. You remember them monkey suits they wear at the beginning?

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Yeah, I was thinking more Guns of Navarone/Bridge On the River Kwai kind of vibe, but yeah, anything with characters I had a bit of time to get to know, who showed but didn't tell, and who's motivation changed at some point. Any kind of character arc, really.
Y'know, I haven't seen those? I feel you though. I was thinking "Star Wars: The Dirty Dozen" initially and that could have been a great flick. Hell, make it "Mission Impossible IN SPACE." There's so many directions you could have taken this basic premise and they just failed at all of them because it was miserable and joyless.

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Ha! Yeah, but imagine if that guy was the lead character!
I'd watch that movie, lol, but you're right; reason that MMFR is going to be a classic film that people watch in 30 years and not one they just put down by the wayside is its nuts and bolts approach to the craft of story.

I just don't understand why this is so hard for Hollywood to get right.
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  #47  
Old 28-Mar-2017, 01:07 AM
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Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
I mean, I don't think it was solely Lucas' technical achievement. Actually, the less Lucas has to do with a movie, the better, it seems. I think there's a lot of luck in getting a movie to come together, but at the end of the day all of the elements that make it function are discrete, technical, and reproducible efforts on the part of people who made the movie.
I think that definitely applies to Empire, because they had to get a team together who could take the lucky formula and improve on it, but I'm not sure about Star Wars. Nobody thought it was going to be a hit.

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I mean... even 2001. You remember them monkey suits they wear at the beginning?
Oh god, yeah. I meant the space stuff! The Blue Danube scene still looks incredible to me.

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I just don't understand why this is so hard for Hollywood to get right.
In terms of an industry, I think they are getting it right, in that they're making a shed ton of money.

Soulless, lowest common denominator dreck is what you get when individuals aren't allowed to follow a creative vision from start to finish. The kind of soulless, lowest common denominator dreck that gets churned out by committee does sell though.

Same with music really; if you take chances on artistic vision then you have a lot of misses that have to be recouped by a couple of big hits.
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  #48  
Old 28-Mar-2017, 01:24 AM
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I think that definitely applies to Empire, because they had to get a team together who could take the lucky formula and improve on it, but I'm not sure about Star Wars. Nobody thought it was going to be a hit.
The script still strikes me as perfect. Again, not complex, not nuanced, but it is absolutely and elegantly functional. The art direction is original and characterizing (think about what the Rebel Corvette and the Star Destroyer have to say about the Empire and Rebels, or what the Millennium Falcon says about Han). Every character has clear motivation and emotions with every scene. The film takes us on an emotional rollercoaster - Obi Wan's death still fills me with pathos and wonder. Agreed that the editor in this case was an incredible asset.

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Oh god, yeah. I meant the space stuff! The Blue Danube scene still looks incredible to me.
True stroy.

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In terms of an industry, I think they are getting it right, in that they're making a shed ton of money.

Soulless, lowest common denominator dreck is what you get when individuals aren't allowed to follow a creative vision from start to finish. The kind of soulless, lowest common denominator dreck that gets churned out by committee does sell though.
I dunno, I'd give more credit to the guys behind Rogue One. I feel like they really wanted to make a good movie, they just screwed the pooch when it came to basic story structure. With the right editor it could have really worked. You look at the movies that inspired this kind of manic quest for a franchise (I'd say Harry Potter and the Marvel movies primarily) and you can see that's the thing they get consistently right.

The soulless decision making seems to attempt to mimic those creative successes rather than simply churn out something formulaic; there were some brave decisions made in Rogue One, they just didn't really pan out.
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  #49  
Old 28-Mar-2017, 03:01 PM
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The script still strikes me as perfect. Again, not complex, not nuanced, but it is absolutely and elegantly functional. The art direction is original and characterizing (think about what the Rebel Corvette and the Star Destroyer have to say about the Empire and Rebels, or what the Millennium Falcon says about Han). Every character has clear motivation and emotions with every scene. The film takes us on an emotional rollercoaster - Obi Wan's death still fills me with pathos and wonder. Agreed that the editor in this case was an incredible asset.
It was a serviceable script, but it could still have turned into a terrible movie. The dialogue isn't great, Lucas isn't known for good dialogue, and I think you have to give credit to both the actors and the editing for making that work.

One thing that struck me about R1 was the editing for the robot's wisecracks (I can't remember what that robot is called) and how they got the timing all wrong. His jokes would look fine on the page, and I don't think the delivery was off, but the timing just made them fall flat for me.

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Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
I dunno, I'd give more credit to the guys behind Rogue One. I feel like they really wanted to make a good movie, they just screwed the pooch when it came to basic story structure. With the right editor it could have really worked. You look at the movies that inspired this kind of manic quest for a franchise (I'd say Harry Potter and the Marvel movies primarily) and you can see that's the thing they get consistently right.

The soulless decision making seems to attempt to mimic those creative successes rather than simply churn out something formulaic; there were some brave decisions made in Rogue One, they just didn't really pan out.
Sure, I don't think that anyone involved wanted to make a "meh" film, but look at how many writers they went through, and how much they were radically changing the movie as they went along. Also, all the changes I've read about were entered around locations and big set pieces, I've not read about any changes where they were pivoting around the characters' motivations. It's all about "hey, this would look really cool, how can we fit this in?".

At the end of the day, big studio pictures are a business. They are a means for investors to make a return. There are good reasons why some director's avoid Hollywood, even after having success with big studio movies.
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  #50  
Old 28-Mar-2017, 03:52 PM
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It was a serviceable script, but it could still have turned into a terrible movie. The dialogue isn't great, Lucas isn't known for good dialogue, and I think you have to give credit to both the actors and the editing for making that work.

One thing that struck me about R1 was the editing for the robot's wisecracks (I can't remember what that robot is called) and how they got the timing all wrong. His jokes would look fine on the page, and I don't think the delivery was off, but the timing just made them fall flat for me.
Yup, no doubt - I just think that the actors and editors are part of the 'technical' aspects of making a film emotionally resonate.

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Sure, I don't think that anyone involved wanted to make a "meh" film, but look at how many writers they went through, and how much they were radically changing the movie as they went along. Also, all the changes I've read about were entered around locations and big set pieces, I've not read about any changes where they were pivoting around the characters' motivations. It's all about "hey, this would look really cool, how can we fit this in?".
I didn't read much about the making of the film! You have any links about it? Sounds fascinatingly horrific.

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At the end of the day, big studio pictures are a business. They are a means for investors to make a return. There are good reasons why some director's avoid Hollywood, even after having success with big studio movies.
I hear you; it just seems like the really notable, breakout hits that generate oodles of money AND pave the way for a franchise of films rely upon fairly standard, robust story telling. Iron Man was a really solid script, same with Avengers, Batman Begins, Guardians of the Galaxy, etc. The missteps seem to occur when the studio starts trying to intervene in the creative process; Fantastic Four, Suicide Squad, Rogue One, etc. It's like there's some basic disconnect about what makes a film work.
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  #51  
Old 28-Mar-2017, 04:19 PM
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Yup, no doubt - I just think that the actors and editors are part of the 'technical' aspects of making a film emotionally resonate.
Yeah, you got me there. I agree

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I didn't read much about the making of the film! You have any links about it? Sounds fascinatingly horrific.
It's mainly tidbits that popped up on my phone's news app or youtube, I don't go around looking for it, but this kind of thing: http://za.ign.com/rogue-one-a-star-w...cular-star-war

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I hear you; it just seems like the really notable, breakout hits that generate oodles of money AND pave the way for a franchise of films rely upon fairly standard, robust story telling. Iron Man was a really solid script, same with Avengers, Batman Begins, Guardians of the Galaxy, etc. The missteps seem to occur when the studio starts trying to intervene in the creative process; Fantastic Four, Suicide Squad, Rogue One, etc. It's like there's some basic disconnect about what makes a film work.
Yeah, but films like Suicide Squad and Transformers do great in the box office worldwide.

I get you, but I'm not sure that film quality and profit are measured on the same axis.
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  #52  
Old 28-Mar-2017, 04:35 PM
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Yeah, but films like Suicide Squad and Transformers do great in the box office worldwide.

I get you, but I'm not sure that film quality and profit are measured on the same axis.
Junk food also sells great. And in the USA, the #1 beer is the thoroughly-disgusting Budweisser. Yep, marketing/business guys can sell anything. Profit and quality are definitely not measured on the same axis.
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  #53  
Old 28-Mar-2017, 04:51 PM
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Junk food also sells great. And in the USA, the #1 beer is the thoroughly-disgusting Budweisser. Yep, marketing/business guys can sell anything. Profit and quality are definitely not measured on the same axis.
Always nice to talk to Americans who appreciate good beer
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  #54  
Old 28-Mar-2017, 06:22 PM
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Always nice to talk to Americans who appreciate good beer
it's really changed here. definitely since i started drinking in the 80's, but the last couple of decades the beer scene has gotten better and better. yay beer!
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  #55  
Old 28-Mar-2017, 07:12 PM
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It's mainly tidbits that popped up on my phone's news app or youtube, I don't go around looking for it, but this kind of thing: http://za.ign.com/rogue-one-a-star-w...cular-star-war
Danke!

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Yeah, but films like Suicide Squad and Transformers do great in the box office worldwide.

I get you, but I'm not sure that film quality and profit are measured on the same axis.
I think the uhhhh gearing of films to a worldwide audience actually has made them worse. Terminator Genesys and Independence Day 2 both strike me as films with strange cultural content that all of a sudden makes sense when you approach it from the "how would this translate" angle. On the other hand, movies like Kung Fu Panda really benefit from an international consideration.
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  #56  
Old 20-Apr-2017, 06:01 PM
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So I finally saw Rogue One and wow, what a letdown. I found myself incredibly, incredibly bored by the movie, I think in part because the film lacked any sort of emotional core. The characters move around like chess pieces from this action set piece to that, making decisions not because of who they are but because of what needs to happen next in the movie. The surface of it is awesome, the aesthetics perfectly matched to the original so that everything looks like rediscovered Ralph McQuarrie concept art, but that's all the similarity to be found.

Underneath the glamor of Star Wars is a really functional, nuts and bolts, story. The characters have clear emotions, the different scenes have obvious emotions, and the movie takes us on an emotional journey, with highs and lows. I feel like a consistent misunderstanding that occurs in storytelling these days is the mistake of thinking dark and serious means one note. Empire was dark. Empire was serious. There were profound consequences for our characters' decisions. Han is encased in carbonite. Luke is mutilated by his father. But we had moments of love, of laughter, of wonder(!) in that movie. A two and a half foot tall green muppet made us think about life a little differently.

All of these moments, and indeed, even the grim and serious nature of Empire, were made possible because of character. Rogue One felt like a slog of a movie where bad things happened to people we didn't really care about, who were moving from scene to scene to reach a predetermined action set piece. In this way they resemble no Star Wars movies as much as they do the prequels.
I Redboxed it a couple nights ago, and ... I'll just quote you because you substantially said what I would say. Boiled down to two sentences my reaction to the movie was, "This is boring because I don't feel anything at all about any of these characters. I know that I'm supposed to, but I don't."
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  #57  
Old 20-Apr-2017, 06:41 PM
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  #58  
Old 20-Apr-2017, 06:45 PM
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I hate you all....more so than usual I mean
I think someone should change Hannibal's tag line to "I love you all."

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  #59  
Old 21-Apr-2017, 02:00 PM
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I hate you all....more so than usual I mean
Someone described Rogue One as the ultimate fan film, and it made a lot of sense why some folks love it so much and others are so... meh about it.
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  #60  
Old 21-Apr-2017, 02:01 PM
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Someone described Rogue One as the ultimate fan film, and it made a lot of sense why some folks love it so much and others are so... meh about it.
I clapped because I know Star Wars!

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