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  #1  
Old 18-Apr-2017, 03:24 PM
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jaggernautico jaggernautico is offline
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Hapkido Ground Work

Is there extensive or limited ground work in some of the hapkido systems since it seems pretty extensive in the throwing and locking departments?
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  #2  
Old 18-Apr-2017, 06:06 PM
Giovanni Giovanni is offline
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in my experience, severely limited training.

i was taught techniques in both sin-moo and standard kido-hae branches hapkido. for one without the training methods, there's no way to actually apply the newaza techniques in a legitimate fashion. two, some of the techniques i was taught seem laughable to someone like me that's been doing bjj for years.
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Old 22-Apr-2017, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by jaggernautico View Post
Is there extensive or limited ground work in some of the hapkido systems since it seems pretty extensive in the throwing and locking departments?
Lots of locks and throws, that's for sure.

The area of ground grappling can open up some controversy (and has in the past).

There's no reason why ground grappling shouldn't be in the art - between the background of the art from Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu and the possible influence of Judo in its early days (one of Choi Dojunim's first students, Suh Bok-sub studied under him to get an edge in Judo competitions initially), there surely is a case for ground grappling.

However, from my experience in traditional Hapkido (2nd dan) and from the bulk of books and videos out there, you won't see a lot of ground grappling at all. You will see a couple of techniques to throw someone off you who has mounted you and you will see some seated techniques against standing opponents. Other than that... probably not much.

With the rise of MMA and popularity of BJJ, suddenly some Hapkido practitioners started looking at the dangers of a ground grappler.
Some organizations buried their heads and said 'you won't be able to take me down, so it's not necessary'. Some organizations suddenly found hidden techniques that looked suspiciously like BJJ and began teaching them. Some groups endorsed cross training in grappling, especially BJJ.

By the way, I am with a non traditional group (Combat Hapkido - more of a hapkido based hybrid art)... from the early 90s it has built in a ground survival program initially based on straight up BJJ and now has been simplified to a more 'greatest hits' of BJJ in a easier to learn format that meshes well with our core system. It is a optional, though highly recommended, program of study in Combat Hapkido.
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Old 23-Apr-2017, 10:10 AM
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and now has been simplified to a more 'greatest hits' of BJJ in a easier to learn format that meshes well with our core system. It is a optional, though highly recommended, program of study in Combat Hapkido.

What are the differences between the cut down system and regular BJJ then?
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Old 23-Apr-2017, 11:15 AM
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What are the differences between the cut down system and regular BJJ then?
I'd imagine it's smaller things like rather than fight for leg locks, escape and get to standing. Sweep and stand, rather than sweep and finish. Probably not a lot of spider guard or inverting etc
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Old 23-Apr-2017, 11:45 AM
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weirdly I was thinking it was thinking the same, maybe it would focus on inferior position escapes, and technical stand ups, but then thats what any good foundation BJJ class should do really.
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Old 23-Apr-2017, 12:33 PM
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What are the differences between the cut down system and regular BJJ then?

Keep in mind this is 'Combat Hapkido' and not 'Traditional Hapkido'.


First, BJJ has its own operating system and Combat Hapkido uses 'Hapkido' as its core operating system, so when teaching BJJ-sourced techniques to Combat Hapkido people, it makes it easier when the operating systems match up better. Add to that that we aren't doing all of the core strengthening techniques, positioning, and so on that BJJ students get from day one. We are grafting a limited set of techniques onto a new operating system for 'high percentage' techniques.

The focus now is more on 'ground survival' instead of ground grappling, so focus is on preventing takedowns and how to extract and get back to our feet if taken down. (Remember the key goal is 'self defense... get away if possible). The takedown prevention meshes well with our falling techniques too.

From there, we teach the guard, mount, and side mount and then we do a few simple escapes from the mount, a few escapes from the guard, and a few escapes from the side mount. Once we get that down, we do a very few locks/submissions in those positions (generally ones that exist in the core Hapkido program) as well as how to get out and get back up (and either flee or fight).

To be honest, it is a very simple stripped down program. In my opinion, it covers the very basics and sets a decent foundation for students to go and cross train and get better.

The focus is not in building 'awesome grapplers' but to get the basics, with the hopes that it will be 'enough' to deal with 'normal' self defense situations. (Combat) Hapkido is a well rounded art... but that means we tend not to be 'experts' in an area, but more all around generalists.

Historical note - the original ground survival program for Combat Hapkido (early 1990s) was very much a BJJ program with exposure to all sorts of techniques and whatnot. Later, it was refined by Carlson Gracie Jr (and supported with seminars and whatnot). In my opinion, the downside was that the material taught was enough for a complete other art (BJJ) which, if taught properly, would take away from time on the core art (of which the ground survival is an optional add-on program). The opinion is that if you want a full-on BJJ program, then go train full time (or cross train) under a qualified BJJ instructor. So, in my opinion, that's why it was pared down to the basics, with the recommendation to cross train.
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Old 23-Apr-2017, 02:13 PM
Giovanni Giovanni is offline
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thomas can answer how combat hapkido addresses. but for me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead_pool View Post
weirdly I was thinking it was thinking the same, maybe it would focus on inferior position escapes, and technical stand ups, but then thats what any good foundation BJJ class should do really.
at my sin-moo school, we did a bit of judo: once a week a judoka came in, showed us throws, then we had with randori and timed matches using standard judo rules.

at my kido hae school, it was more like what you say above: focusing on inferior position escapes, to which was added preventing wrestling take-downs.

at least at the sin-moo school we had the training methods and proper instruction. at the kido-hae school, it was a mess. the techniques wouldn't even work. they're exactly what you would expect from people that unquestionably handed down techniques for decades without actually having to ever use them. even if the techniques were good, the training methods were not there. which is the whole reason i left hapkido--no sparring.
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Old 23-Apr-2017, 03:06 PM
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What training methods are used? and do you practise against strikes?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas View Post
Keep in mind this is 'Combat Hapkido' and not 'Traditional Hapkido'.


First, BJJ has its own operating system and Combat Hapkido uses 'Hapkido' as its core operating system, so when teaching BJJ-sourced techniques to Combat Hapkido people, it makes it easier when the operating systems match up better. Add to that that we aren't doing all of the core strengthening techniques, positioning, and so on that BJJ students get from day one. We are grafting a limited set of techniques onto a new operating system for 'high percentage' techniques.

The focus now is more on 'ground survival' instead of ground grappling, so focus is on preventing takedowns and how to extract and get back to our feet if taken down. (Remember the key goal is 'self defense... get away if possible). The takedown prevention meshes well with our falling techniques too.

From there, we teach the guard, mount, and side mount and then we do a few simple escapes from the mount, a few escapes from the guard, and a few escapes from the side mount. Once we get that down, we do a very few locks/submissions in those positions (generally ones that exist in the core Hapkido program) as well as how to get out and get back up (and either flee or fight).

To be honest, it is a very simple stripped down program. In my opinion, it covers the very basics and sets a decent foundation for students to go and cross train and get better.

The focus is not in building 'awesome grapplers' but to get the basics, with the hopes that it will be 'enough' to deal with 'normal' self defense situations. (Combat) Hapkido is a well rounded art... but that means we tend not to be 'experts' in an area, but more all around generalists.

Historical note - the original ground survival program for Combat Hapkido (early 1990s) was very much a BJJ program with exposure to all sorts of techniques and whatnot. Later, it was refined by Carlson Gracie Jr (and supported with seminars and whatnot). In my opinion, the downside was that the material taught was enough for a complete other art (BJJ) which, if taught properly, would take away from time on the core art (of which the ground survival is an optional add-on program). The opinion is that if you want a full-on BJJ program, then go train full time (or cross train) under a qualified BJJ instructor. So, in my opinion, that's why it was pared down to the basics, with the recommendation to cross train.
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  #10  
Old 24-Apr-2017, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giovanni View Post

at my sin-moo school, we did a bit of judo: once a week a judoka came in, showed us throws, then we had with randori and timed matches using standard judo rules.

at my kido hae school, it was more like what you say above: focusing on inferior position escapes, to which was added preventing wrestling take-downs.

at least at the sin-moo school we had the training methods and proper instruction. at the kido-hae school, it was a mess. the techniques wouldn't even work. they're exactly what you would expect from people that unquestionably handed down techniques for decades without actually having to ever use them. even if the techniques were good, the training methods were not there. which is the whole reason i left hapkido--no sparring.
At the traditional school (IHF) I trained at in Korea, we practiced Yudo (Judo) techniques as part of the Hapkido curriculum. The instructor was a 5th dan in Yudo as well. We did basic throws and sweeps.

We actually did spar frequently in Korea - for the most part, it was open sparring (strikes, locks, throws, etc) done without protective gear but at a much lower intensity level (NOT full contact). Going to the ground together was very rare and usually ended up in a scramble to get to your feet. If we threw or swept someone, generally we let them go or went for a standing pin or lock
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Last edited by Thomas; 24-Apr-2017 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 24-Apr-2017, 03:21 PM
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What training methods are used? and do you practise against strikes?
Hmmmm.... that's a pretty broad question - is there anything specifically you're interested in?

From the Combat Hapkido perspective...

With our roots in Hapkido (and all of the instructors' roots in Taekwondo), we do a lot of kicking and striking (both doing and defending). We start very compliantly (much like the TKD one-steps) and then add speed, power, different angles and such. We spar, although we tailor it to the task. For example, if we want to practice power, then we limit the targets, put on padding, and use more rules. If we want to open it up, we use less padding and lower level of contact. 'Open Sparring' allows for any techniques (strikes, locks, throws, grappling and sometimes we add a weapon)... but we use lower levels of contact.

On the grappling side, we first have to teach basic takedowns so that we can practice defending them (for the most part, use of range, level changes, posting, and sprawling), then how to defend once taken down (guard) and how to get back to our feet. Sometimes we add in a holstered weapon for weapons retention training as well. Sometimes we add a weapon to the attacker or defender.
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Old 24-Apr-2017, 04:23 PM
Giovanni Giovanni is offline
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We actually did spar frequently in Korea - for the most part, it was open sparring (strikes, locks, throws, etc) done without protective gear but at a much lower intensity level (NOT full contact). Going to the ground together was very rare and usually ended up in a scramble to get to your feet. If we threw or swept someone, generally we let them go or went for a standing pin or lock
i shouldn't say "we" didn't spar. my and some other black belts did spar and attempt to use the techniques we were learning. the act of sparring though was very instructive for me and learning from that got me into sport arts like bjj, judo, boxing.

we also never went to the ground. lol
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