Lack of humility

I used to think that this handshake was some ridiculously contrived invention of American KMA practitioners. But the Korean gentleman who runs our neighborhood corner store does precisely the same thing every time he lays my charge card receipt on the counter to be signed. So I gather it's neither an American invention nor a specific martial arts interaction.

 

I always lower my eyes when bowing as, in my understanding, that is the point of bowing. You're temporarily putting yourself at their mercy.

If you keep a watchful gaze on someone while bowing, you're saying "I'm making a false show of respect, but actually I think you're a scoundrel who might attack me while I'm not looking". If you want to send the message that you think your partner is a cheat, why bow to them at all and if you trust them, why not bow fully?

 

I like bowing because the instructor is so into his art. It really is his life. I respect this in and of itself, and actually find it inspirational.

 

I learned that it depends on the other if you lower your gaze.

With other students you keep looking them in the eyes, because during training they represent the "enemy".
The instructor on the other side is never the "enemy", so you lower gaze when bowing to him.

That being said, my teacher doesn't like the lowering of the gaze at all, and told us to look at the other, even if it is him.
But he also told us, that during belt tests for the higher grades (when there are external validators as well) we should lower our gaze, when bowing to one of them and during the test itself, because some of them expect that.

 

Nope not kidding. Probably not as bad as you think though. Students are warned of it ahead of time.

Kind of related, my instructor was having dinner when he was jumped from behind and put in a choke hold. It is part of training and it is used sparingly. There are usually a mob of people around that know about it to break it up, should it become a real fight. One reason to come in slow is that the reaction from your classmate can be affected by your speed. If you come in fast, they often react fast. If you come in slower, they get a chance to assess the situation once their initial response addresses your attack.

I think an example was in the Fight Quest episode focusing on Kajukenbo (martial art I train in). I'm pretty sure someone gets punched or kicking in the groin by surprise.

 

Haha, that is exactly our training Mitch :evil:

The Fight Quest episode is old now. An example getting jumped in training at 5:40 minutes:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7Tp7ma0vFs"]Fight Quest S01E10 Kajukenbo - YouTube[/ame]

 

This is one of those weird little things for me.

One instructor I've been with very much make a point that you shouldn't lower your head too much when you bow and that you should never stop watching your partner because the moment you don't pay attention to them, they could hit you. It was less to do with a lack of trust and more to do with respecting their combative ability.

Others on the other hand used to avoid doing that for the precise reason you mentioned.

Go figure.

 

Again, it makes a big symbolic difference if it is mutual. If everyone lowers their eyes, or prostrates themselves or whatever, regardless of rank or title, then I don't have a problem with it.

It's when lower ranks have to show more deference to higher ranks that my political hackles are raised. In both the East and the West it's a hangover from Feudal times when you literally were at the mercy of your masters, and had to fawn and show it, or suffer the consequences. I'm a "no gods, no masters" kind of guy.

When you are sincere with someone, you look them in the eyes, as equals. It is far easier to hide your intentions and true feelings when the other person can't see your eyes. "Windows to the soul" and all that...

There is also the interpretation that, much like turning your back on someone, you are saying "you are no threat to me". Which, in a martial arts class, could be considered the height of disrespect.

My students are never required to be "at my mercy". I am their servant. They respect my skills because I demonstrate them, not because my belt or etiquette tells them so. If I am a good enough teacher that a student becomes better than me, it will be their turn to serve me.

So, for me, I think the exact opposite to you on the matter. It is a mutual nod of respect, made sincere by looking into each others' eyes.

 

Different strokes for different folks I guess.
I'm with DH, bow, keep eye contact, I always understood it was considered rude to show the top of your head, particularly to someone worthy of respect.
I like all the extras that go with training in a traditional way, it helps me with concentrating and getting in the right mindset for training, and forgetting the outside world for a couple of hours.
For the op, I can see how it might annoy you, but if training is good, let it go and move on.
Just my opinion.
signed
a pansy

 

I was brought up to show respect for my elders, I am now middle aged and I still do so and have raised my kids to do the same. As a beginner I was aware within a week that etiquette generally existed in Karate, but why not? It exists in many other areas that I have tried not the least of which is horse back riding. If you go somewhere to learn from someone else I think it behoves respect to appear, on-time, clean & tidy, correctly attired and prepared to go along with whatever mark of respect your instructor and club decide is necessary to match their accepted way of working. In fact I did expect it in Far Eastern Martial Arts since there is a lot written about not causing offence when dealing with Far Eastern Business contacts much of which I have read and absorbed.

After a good few weeks I am gradually picking up what is necessary and acceptable. Bowing in an out of the Dojo, bowing to Sensai, to your opponents, touching gloves before sparring, covering your Gi and belt when going to and from class - even if just across the carpark and I'm sure there are others. Our class works on first names even to Sensai who I know as a friend too, but I KNOW he is Sensai and worthy of respect as are any of the others in class senior belts or otherwise who are willing to help me regardless of their age. No-one is our groups 'brags' about their seniority. Sensai is a really good level of Dan, but just wears a black belt, but that doesn't lessen the respect he receives.

I have picked up a lot of the etiquette as classes have progressed - people mention bits and bobs, and some of it has been in a Newsletter. What I would suggest is that people running classes who require a certain level of etiquette write this down on an introduction sheet for new students which is handed out on their first day just so that everyone is aware of what is expected. New students are not mind-readers and it might just save some embarrassment. I comprehend 'respect', I just need to know how I am expected to demonstrate it in certain scenarios, esp. when coming into a completely 'alien' sport.

 

If I may add my bit, I understand why being asked to hold somebody's hand with two doesn't feel right. I understand it has to do with etiquette, but I don't think it is a good thing to ask a student for more respect for oneself (just) because they're senior. Although on the other hand, I also think it's not worth to leave just because of that.

In our dojo we do bow to Sensei, but he bows to us, too. He doesn't ask for respect from us, he earns it. He's very friendly and kind. When (outside the class) we sit to eat at the table for example, he's always the last one to take a seat. When somebody else comes, he's the first one to offer his seat to them, even if it means he'll either stand or sit on the floor.
He also doesn't like to order us around too much, so when he isn't perfectly healhy and can't train with us, we never do any push ups, sit ups or other strenght exercises he can't do at the moment, because it doesn't feel right to him that he would just count and watch us work.
And so on... And then in the class we don't try to do our best in order not to be scolded, but because we really don't want to dissapoint him. And I feel he deserves my respect.

Also, not too long ago I attended a seminar abroad led by a Sensei with 7th Dan (I was 9th kyu). After the evening party, we went to say goodbye and thank her for the training and -if I remember correctly - it was the Sensei who held my hand with both of hers, thanked me for coming and bowed several times to the dumbfounded me... although, surely, no etiquette told her to. She didn't need to stroke her ego, but in the end I found even greater respect for her.