Lack of humility

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Shard, Oct 21, 2014.

  1. Shard

    Shard New Member

    Hi Folks,

    I just did my first ever Kyokushin class. Now I had finished a two hour session of Krav Maga and had been grappling a 17st guy compared to my 11st so I was a bit knackered having also had nearly a year out following a car accident.
    So I had no Gi and was a bit minging but asked if I could join the class that followed mine. Sure no problem! So I was tired and not my sharpest. Still no problem.
    Now I do have a 1st Dan in Wado ryu and I've trained with some of the most amazing people in the last twenty years in various styles various grades. So I was a bit taken back when as we all shaking hands at the end a 3rd Dan chap (neither of the instructors) told me I should shake his hand with both of mine as he was a higher grade. Now this is most definitely the first time I have had that said to me.
    I have helped teach and also run clubs and found that with the more traditional arts that practitioners were humble people. I don't think I have honestly ever met someone that lorded their higher grade over mine.
    It was a real shame as I had enjoyed the class up till that point. Maybe I am just getting sensitive in my old age. It has put me off training with them again though.
     
  2. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    It's probably just a tradition he picked up. Seems analogous to bowing lower to a higher grade.

    Who is lacking humility here? The guy who pointed out a quirk in their class routine (although I accept I don't know how he pointed it out), or you, who seems to have been rubbed up the wrong way by very little (although again, the way he said it might have a lot to do with that).
     
  3. Shard

    Shard New Member

    LOL it did rub me up the wrong way but I just thought it was rude considering it was the only thing he said to me. I guess the higher Dan Grades I have trained with have always treated me as an equal or at least with some respect the same way I have always treated other people. I'm there shedding blood sweat and tears just as much as them if you catch my drift. The thing is Holyhead would you say to a newbie you must show me respect I'm a higher grade than you. It was like being in the playground not the Dojo.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2014
  4. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    I'd tell a new student that they should bow before beginning a drill if that's how the class operates. If the class requires a lower grade student to bow deeper to a higher grade one, I'd tell them that too.

    Japanese martial arts inherit a lot of the etiquette that exists in Japanese society. That's just how it is sometimes.
     
  5. Shard

    Shard New Member

    I have been to a few different eskrima clubs and also Krav clubs and also Jujitsu in the last few months. The greeting you get is very warm and welcoming. Hand shakes and name exchange etc. Then you proceed to batter the hell out of each other with no apology given or expected then afterwards you all shake hands and thank each other for an excellent training session even if I do have a blackeye or split lip. I guess I have been out of the traditional dojo quite awhile now. Maybe I will just stick to the friendly way I have always taught and leave the pretentious to their own devices.
     
  6. Dan93

    Dan93 Valued Member

    In my Kyokushin Dojo we are taught from the start to shake hands with both hands and I believe it is a cultural thing.. I have been scolded before by my Japanese instructor for using one hand.

    We were taught this extends to all grades rather than seniors.

    Cheers

    Dan
     
  7. Shard

    Shard New Member

    Thanks Dan! Funny enough I was just reading the Llamas guide to good Dojo's and training environment. Maybe I'm being a tad precious. Hey Ho it's a shame my regular club closed. Onwards and upwards!
     
  8. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Seems a bit weird, but it's probably just the case that it was told to him when he was a lower grade so he thinks it's "just the way it is".
     
  9. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Seems weird. I was reading about Japanese ettiquette the last few days and, ignoring that hand shaking isn't their choice in the first place, iirc they grasp their own wrist not your hand.

    Still, if the worst thing at a new school is a single higher grade is a bit of a stickler then its been a good day in my view.
     
  10. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    We don't live in feudal Japan.

    I don't believe anyone should call another "master", or grant that acceptance with body language.

    ...unless you're into that kind of thing and have a safety word.
     
  11. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    I'm really struggling to see the problem here. You lead a very sheltered existence in wado if you never ran into Japanese etiquette rules that required you to treat senior students with a superficial level of deference, most commonly expressed by bowing to them at the start and end of the class.

    If the guy made a big deal out of it, then he's being a jerk, but if all he did was point out the class protocol then what offence can reasonably be taken?
     
  12. Dan93

    Dan93 Valued Member

    It shouldn't be a subservant action it is mutural show of respect with a simple Osu! I don't have a problem with it personally as I like the discipline aspect.

    I have trained at a Koryu Jujutsu club (Hontai Yoshin Ryu) and they were alot worse believe me (I wasn't allowed to directly speak to a very senior guest instructor (Actually the head) from Japan directly and had to speak to senior grade who would speak to him even through he was right next to me, wasn't impressed to say the least althrough the guest instructor wasnt bothered it was the grades around him... Guess one of the hazards of a Koryu art, they do act like their in Feudal Japan :)
     
  13. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Mutual means the same. Is it the same action between teacher and student?

    Personally, I would never bow my head and let my eyes off anyone. If that was a condition of teaching I'd say "bye bye".

    Years later, the story might be different, but I'm a big believer in earning trust.
     
  14. Dan93

    Dan93 Valued Member

    Yes, as I was taught it. Both shaking with both hands and bowing at the same level.

    I have never lowered my eyes when bowing and that does not happen in my Dojo, or any other Karate/Jujutsu dojo I have been to either.
     
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    My instructor and I had a discussion around a month ago about the importance of ego. He had a potential new student that didn't want to call my instructor by his title. In this case "Professor", but it could have been anything, Sensei, Sifu, Coach... He had previous bad experience with a teacher or school where they were very formal about titles. He just wanted to address my instructor by his first name.

    This rubbed my instructor the wrong way and that is why he started talking to me about it to get my opinion on it. He expects every martial artist to be humble, and this means to follow the proper etiquette.

    I flipped the logic around a bit and said that we aren't really very humble, we have big egos. If not for having big egos, we probably would just be average and become complacent in martial arts. To really excel in martial arts, you have to have an ego, a chip on your shoulder so to speak. Humility and ego are not opposites, you can and must have both. Being humble is to be honest with yourself and others (be sincere) and it can be developed through hard training. Ego can be a driving force to motivate you to train hard.

    Ego is bad is when it distracts you, your training partner, or others around you. Humility is very practical, it is what keeps ego in check so that it does not become a distraction.

    So, going back to the original poster, when corrected by the 3rd degree black belt on how to shake hands... this rubbed you the wrong way. That is good to the point that you have ego, a chip on your shoulder. It is bad for you, however, if you allow it to become a distraction in your training. In that regard, be humble and let it go.

    This is not a lecture, just story telling.
     
  16. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    I did an offshoot of Kyokushin that was so bastardised everybody's last name was Snow, but even we followed the tradition of shaking with two hands.

    In taekwondo, I've been chastised many a time for not tucking my left arm under my outstretched right arm when shaking hands. That felt and looked even more stupid than two handed shakes. To use Holyheadjch's term, these are the quirks of the gym/style that we must accept if we want to train there.

    I recommend you keep up Kyokushin. Wado is for pansies.
     
  17. Shard

    Shard New Member

    Well I didn't correct him on his poor head kicking. there are blackbelts and there are blackbelts. In the real world respect is earnt and shouldn't be expected. I have trained with the like of Sensei Sakagami and Sensei peter May. Guro Krishna Godhania and Stewart McGill. You train hard and give it your all then you all go out for a curry.
    I'll have to give up the Wado I'm allergic to flowers Redcoat!
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2014
  18. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    As someone who practices arts that have their origin in that time period I haven't been asked to call anyone "master" and body language more often than not tends to be based around safety and respect.

    I bow a certain way to my teacher to show no ill will and in such a way that it is difficult for me to attack him etc the same for handling a blade.

    Yes it's wrapped up in tradition but there are usually good reasons for certain behaviours. It's only when you are dealing with some muppet who is so far up himself he can't walk that you see a bastardisation of etiquette.
     
  19. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    You know what the difference between any Wado Ryu karateka and you is, VZ?

    Even white belts have some vague idea how to use their hands. Though if I'm ever attacked by a pile of ready-to-snap boards that need a good kicking, I'll know who to call :p.

    =====

    That is a bit disappointing and I would be a bit bemused by it myself.

    I wouldn't let it put you off training with them again though. You said yourself that you were knackered when you first went in which might alter the way you experienced that moment.

    Do you think it might have been that particular guy having a bad day? I'm guessing he is the only guy that did that?
     
  20. rne02

    rne02 Valued Member

    It comes accross more as egotistical than humble to insist people call you by a specific title.

    I believe in Japan it is (or was originally) considered bad etiquette to refer to yourself as Sensei, or to insist that others do so, as it is an honorific title. In the west however most instructors refer to themselves as Sensei when posting on line/wiring email/dojo notices.

    I guess for me it would depend on how someone went about asking me to call them something or shake their hands (or whatever). If I got the impression it was being done just to stroke their ego then that would rub me up the wrong way.
     

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