Krav Maga Competition

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by thinkingbody, Feb 16, 2017.

  1. thinkingbody

    thinkingbody Valued Member

    It seems the Israeli Defence Forces have realised the efficacy of competition in preparing people for self defence situations. Check out the video and link:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbBjREHS1gA

    https://www.idfblog.com/2014/05/29/the-idfs-best-of-the-best-krav-maga-competition/



    So, why has this not caught on in Krav Maga more generally? I know its early days yet, but this seems like a really good idea to me. If more Krav Maga schools took up this approach, the approach that the actual Israeli Defence Forces takes, that Krav Maga would become a more respected martial art and better prepare its students for self defence situations.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Decent start. I'm optimistic.
     
  3. Dan93

    Dan93 Valued Member

    Looked pretty good, mind you I would expect a pretty high standard from the IDF. Beats the usual class in the back room of Fitness First in the UK.
     
  4. Sandy

    Sandy Valued Member

    Outside Israel, I think the issue with Krav Maga has been its dilution through commercialism. I'm saddened to see a good art spoiled. Though it's not the only martial to have suffered from commercialism taking priority (e.g. the BJJ blue belts that were handed out on completion of the Gracie Combatives programme).

    In contrast, I went over to Israel to study Krav Maga and was very impressed by it. Undiluted Krav is spot-on for self defence (situational awareness, pressure testing, weapons awareness, etc). Unfortunately I've no idea if you can find Krav like this in the UK.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
  5. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    I think with the self defence specific scenarios you have the same issues you've always had with making it competitive. As for the mutually agreed combat, it's good to see them doing their version of sport combat with some quality.
     
  6. thinkingbody

    thinkingbody Valued Member

    Specifically what issues are you referring to?
     
  7. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Firstly, that it's a asymmetric competition. You're only judging one person which means success is subjectively judged between multiple asymmetric competitions rather than having the option for definitive ending(s), as in symmetric combat.

    Secondly, that as a result of the asymmetric nature of the competition you can't hold all variables equal between the competitions you're judging. Even if you had the exact same person playing the bad guy his fatigue level and his reactions will all change, assuming he's actually resisting which brings me to...

    Thirdly, because there is a pre-determined good guy/bad guy dynamic, and especially with Krav's reliance on immediately damaging techniques, the level of resistance can't be high or the bad guy will end up clobbered. From watching the video it comes off like a two-man kata rather than one person actually trying to harm another because it's so highly contrived, asymmetric, and because you can't go full bore.

    That's the big problems I have initially with it and why I think that while pressure in training is extremely good, making this kind of training into a competition is fraught with major difficulties.
     
  8. The-Millenial

    The-Millenial New Member

    I have just started training in Krav Maga, with the basic application of the self-defense techniques through drills. I think that competition could actually be a decent way to add a new element of training in the style, but used hand-in-hand with traditional methods of training too (or what I would assume are traditional, the general drills that I have done in Krav Maga!) However, I have also heard that Krav is meant to be a self-defense to incapacitate the attacker quickly, and often times viciously. So I would be a little leery of seeing people trying to break it down for competition purposes.
     
  9. thinkingbody

    thinkingbody Valued Member

    You could just make the rounds shorter, like say 2 minutes. And with regards to the issues raised about varying resistance levels, you could use a point system which would give an incentive to compete to your utmost ability. Eg. you have 4 participants, each does a 2 minute round with the other three for points. Then each does a round where they fight multiple attackers, you get points for every strike you land and for time not spent in a clinch and you loose points for strikes landed on you. Then you do two more rounds, 1 knife defence, 1 stick defence, with rubber weapons of course. Then you add up who has the most points and they win. A draw means an extra 2 minute round between the drawer opponents to decide the winner.
     
  10. Remi Lessore

    Remi Lessore Valued Member

    Full contact Krav Maga bout

    The FEKM (of which I am no longer a member though I still hold to their values) has always had full contact as part of it's grading from the green belt upwards (semi-contact for over 40s).
    It has also been recently very sensitive to the accusations coming from proponents of combat sports that KM did not really prepare its students for combat because of an over reliance on drills.
    As far as the FEKM and similar organisations were concerned, this has always been a straw-man critique because it 100% agrees that without live combat people are unprepared and has always tried to allow for this within its training program - hence the full contact bouts.
    You can see any number of these on YouTube by searching the French phrase :"FEKM combat dur"
    But this year, for the martial arts festival at Bercy, they asked a couple of decent instructors (3rd dargas = 3rd dans) to put on an exhibition bout.
    The blurb in French at the beginning acknowledges the necessity for live fighting and explains the rules to an audience of other and non-martial artists:
    All target areas permitted but simulated strikes when head-butting, striking the back of the neck and any other potentially lethal or maiming strikes. These strikes and kicks to the groin are moderated by the referee who calls a break when they are not blocked in order to mark the point that if they landed in reality they could be fight stoppers.
    But striking to the head and body with hands and feet with full force is required for the grading.
    However, this is NOT A COMPETITION. There is no winner or loser announced, nor triumph if someone is knocked out.
    This is a test of composure under pressure, maintaining the principles of KM (simplicity and personal safety) and of respect for the training partner.
    If a particularly heavy punch is landed, for example, and someone is dazed, the fight carries on semi-contact until both are prepared to resume at a greater intensity.
    Other KM organisations also have competitions of drills (similar to kata competitions, i suppose) where competitors are assessed for speed, precision, etc.
    Anyway - here is an edited clip of the Bercy exhibition bout:
    https://vimeo.com/210558795
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017
  11. Remi Lessore

    Remi Lessore Valued Member

    Hard contact Krav Maga

    The IKMA (Israeli Krav Maga Association) under Haim Gidon, Zut Krav Maga , Rhon Mizrachi's KMF, the FEKM, my Association (Krav Attitude), all have unscripted full contact.
    I think the most commercial federations - IKMF, KMG, WWKM, may have neglected that aspect.
    I'm happy to stand corrected as to why it has not "caught on" with all... I suspect the teachers are not confident of their own abilities if a boxer or kick or Thai boxer or MMAist comes into the class.
    I will always spar (lightly) with these people before I allow them to spar with my students, at the risk of being publicly bettered by them.
    Depending on their level, because we do a fair amount of sparring, I normally hold my own... when we spar lightly.
    There are also a number of combat sports people who go into KM after a while to practice and broaden their skills base.
    So, to answer your question, it has caught on on various forms - or rather, it was always part of the original system but got neglected by some organisations.
    See the clip at the end of my previous post.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Hi Remi, hope you're well.

    I'm a little confused, as that video quite clearly didn't involve "striking to the head and body with hands and feet with full force". All the strikes were pulled to some extent. It looked like light-to-moderate contact sparring to me.
     
  13. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    No guard, no balance, no defence, no working their way in and just swinging hoping to hit.

    It's not for me.
     
  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Well that all sounds good, but then the video showed the reality.

    The actual interplay between the two was quite poor.
     
  15. Remi Lessore

    Remi Lessore Valued Member

    Exhibition bout

    An exhibition bout. Unchoreographed, and improvised, but not trying to spark each other.
    Do you think they didn't demonstrate composure and control and respect?
     
  16. Remi Lessore

    Remi Lessore Valued Member

    They wanted to show that how they can fight for an exhibition bout. But that they weren't trying to do tear into each other or knock each other out in front of a crowd.
    So you are correct.
     
  17. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Composure and control are irrelevant if you don't know what to do with them technically. As for respect, follow the rules and be a good sport, but it doesn't mean you have any skill.
     
  18. Remi Lessore

    Remi Lessore Valued Member

    You could show us how it should be done, Simon.
     
  19. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Ah, okay. I re-read your post and realised the "striking to the head and body with hands and feet with full force" was in relation to gradings, not this exhibition bout.

    My mistake! :)
     
  20. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    You're right. :D
     

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