The Starch Solution and Veganism

Discussion in 'Health and Fitness' started by Bluesoup, May 22, 2015.

  1. Bluesoup

    Bluesoup Valued Member

    Now, I grew up hearing from my parents about all the stuff I should and shouldn't eat and it has influenced me in the way that I've become an adventurer on the road to the perfect diet.

    However, being from a Mediterranean family I never even once considered a vegan diet. But lately I've been reading studies and listening to people talk about the benefits of a vegan diet. With all the evidence in front of me, I can't rightly dismiss it as being hippy or whatever.

    To be clear, I'm a huge meat eater and I love dairy. And I really don't particularly care about the animals, because I've always been the type to accept our barbaric traditions as the reality of life when it comes to meat and whatnot. But with all the evidence of it being bad thrown in my face, I'm actually now considering to try a vegan diet for at least 2-3 months. Purely for the health benefits. And also to pass along good dieting habits to the people around me and the people who will come after me. If it truly is healthy that is.

    So I've come across a man called John McDougall and his book "The Starch Solution" and I've been considering buying his book and start my whole "vegan adventure". But before I do that I wanted to open up a discussion about him, his book and vegan diets in general and to see what you guys think. Here's a (lengthy) video of him where he explains what his book is about and what he feels is the right diet.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XVf36nwraw"]The Starch Solution - John McDougall MD - YouTube[/ame]

    I appreciate the opinions here on MAP because there seems to be an 'educated opinion' culture going around here on this website and people are not afraid to dispute. Now this discussion does not solely have to be about John McDougall and his book, because I would also like to talk about the health benefits (or deficits) of a vegan diet in general. Also I work out a lot, so it would make sense to talk about this with other sporty people.

    Of course, I would like to hear the thoughts of vegans so don't hold back. :D
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2015
  2. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    i would say take a nutrition degree, and read and assess scientific papers from an informed position, if you want a perfect diet for you.
     
  3. Bluesoup

    Bluesoup Valued Member

    Aside from my goals to find a perfect diet, this thread is more about vegan diets and a specific diet proposed by a physicist and whether it's good or not.

    I don't need to get a nutrition degree to learn about nutrition. I can research on my own. I don't harbor any ambitions to become a nutrition expert or write books about it. All I care about is my health and the health of the people around me.

    Part of my research/self-study is talking about nutrition with people online.

    Did you watch the video or do you already have experience/opinions about vegan diets?
     
  4. dormindo

    dormindo Active Member Supporter

    Don't have time at the moment to sit through an hour long video on McDougal and I have not read his book. I will say, however, that the vegan diet is not the 'perfect' diet. And I say this as a vegan of nearly 20 years now. Whatever diet you adopt, you'll have to look out for your caloric intake, your macronutrient (fats, carbs, protein) intake and ratio and your intake of vitamins and minerals in their proper amounts.
     
  5. Bluesoup

    Bluesoup Valued Member

    Yes, I've heard it a lot that new vegans forget to take in enough calories and get in danger of becoming malnourished.

    There's a few youtube channels I recently started following that address this. One channel in particular stood out to me and even though he's quite judgmental, he makes good points. The channel is called 'Vegan Gains'. I found it interesting, because he introduced to the combination of veganism and weightlifting to me. Something I've always been told was impossible.
     
  6. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Bear in mind a lot of the anecdotal stories of feeling better since turning vegan can possibly be attributed to an increase in the intake of fruit and veg, rather than the exclusion of meat, fish and dairy.
     
  7. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    malnourishment depends on nutrients, not on calories. lack of calories just makes you lose weight. healthy veganism is contingent on variety of food, mainly (same as healthy omnivore diets, really), as it reduces risk of accidentally not getting something that you need, a problem not usually found with diets including animal sources, but also found in different ways in purely animal diets with no plant matter (some would argue pure animal diets are worse in the long term, but they're also tastier. i personally try to get a vegetable-rich meal in at least a couple times a week (not big on fruit, myself, but leafy greens and some non-green vegetables will git in mah belleh or suffer the consequences) but am primarily a meat and dairy person for reasons of simplicity and hedonism.

    edit: detail: part of the differential health risk between both exclusive dirting approaches is that meat only carries risks that are mitigated by vegetable intake (cancer-wise, for example), while vegan diets are mainly risky in that you need a more complex diet to not miss any nutrients, and greens are afaik generally lower in calories so you have to eat tons of them if you don't get in stuff like rice and potatoes for carbs. so, generalizing, added veggies make animal diets healthier and added animal products make veggie diets simpler and tastier.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2015
  8. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    What's exactly are your goals and what is your current diet like?
     
  9. Bluesoup

    Bluesoup Valued Member

    That's an argument for the vegan diet actually. There's a limit to the amount of calories we're supposed to take in and if swapping out the meat, fish and dairy for more carbs, fruit and vegetables means you feel better...well, you get my point.



    Unless you're eating pure fat like butter or oil as a meal, eating more calories would mean you're getting more carbs, proteins, vitamines in your system.

    With vegan diets, people apparently tend to try and primarily live off of fruits and vegetables. Yet the proper approach to a vegan diet seems to be high in carbs with the added vegetables and fruits to get the vitamines in. Proteins are sufficiently found in starch, vegetables and even fruits to an extent, so it's not necessary to try and get proteins from animal products.

    So far I've found that with vegan diets, people can lack vitamin B12 and DHH and in some cases vitamin D. Vitamin B12 comes from bacteria and is found in soil and in the mouths and stomachs of animals, including people.

    DHH is in fish and vitamin D comes from the sun. So basically just get outside more. A lack of DHH seems to be a non-issue, but I don't know enough about the subject as I'm still reading up on this stuff.

    Anyway, these 3 things can be easily supplemented and you don't have to eat the animal products.
     
  10. dormindo

    dormindo Active Member Supporter

    re: what fish said. Just want to make it clear that in my response above, that watching one's caloric intake is indeed a separate issue from nutritional concerns. I mention them both in the same sentence as they are common problems that vegans that I have know (including myself) have had problems with.
     
  11. Bluesoup

    Bluesoup Valued Member

    My goal is optimal health. I want to be the healthiest I can possibly be. Nutrition is one of the biggest factors on a persons health, so I'm figuring out what's best for me.

    A typical day for me is like this:

    Breakfast
    Smoothie with yoghurt, 1 banana, 1 apple, 1 pear and a bunch of strawberries and blueberries and sometimes adding a bit of fruit juice.
    My smoothies are never exactly the same, I change the fruits around a lot.

    Lunch
    Quark with Muesli (Quark is like a thicker more concentrated version of yoghurt, similar calories though)

    Dinner
    Stir-fried vegetables (varyingly combining broccoli, carrots, bell-peppers, cauliflower, asparagus, zucchini)
    With spagghetti, white rice or potatoes.

    And either chicken or meat to go with it.

    After I'm finished I'll eat a piece of 85% pure chocolate. Love the stuff.


    Sometimes I switch my breakfast and lunch around, depending on my cravings.

    Throughout the day I'll drink 1-2 liters of water. This is including tea. (edit, lol thee...dutch word for tea xD)
    I don't really drink anything else. Sometimes (once every two weeks) a cup of coffee, or some fruit juice but that's it.


    As a snack I tend to eat some cookies. Sometimes they're good cookies, sometimes they're bad. I particularly have an addiction to this stuff. :D

    http://www.ah.nl/producten/product/wi231081/lotus-dinosaurus-granen-4-pack

    Sorry, it's in Dutch...:p

    This is how I've been eating for the past few months and I really cleaned up my diet a lot, but there's still room for improvement. Although I've no idea how many calories I'm getting in each day. I'm more worried about the actual stuff I'm eating, rather than how many calories I'm getting.

    I workout 6 times a week (3x weightlifting, 3x jogging) and go for a 30min walk 5 times a week. So I probably need a lot of calories to keep me going anyway.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2015
  12. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Have you tried counting the calories in that?

    Health has very varied measures - feelings (subjective), bodyf fat, muscle mass, metabolic profile (insulin response, blood pressure etc), cardiac measures (heart rate etc), cancer risk etc.

    Have you calculated your current calorie and macronutrients intake compared to the recommended for your height and weight?
    Have you check whether you have a healthy bodyfat percentage?
    Have you had lipid profiles, insulin response checked?
    Have you checked your heart rate?

    If you want to be healthy why not cut out chocolate and cookes (something I find very difficult) and eat everything in moderation?

    The answer for a healthy life has always been: everything in moderation.

    I went vegan-ish for a good few months but for me personally I couldn't get enough protein and found it rather bland, I was demotivated and had low energy levels. You need to enjoy what the healthy food you eat!
     
  13. Bluesoup

    Bluesoup Valued Member

    I've never really tried counting calories. Mostly because it seemed quite tedious since you need to measure the portions of your food to get an accurate number.

    And basically a 'no' to all the other things you asked. I want to get checked out to see where I stand, but I wouldn't know how to go about it or if my insurance would cover such a thing. If not, how much it would cost and stuff.

    Also, I thought 85% pure chocolate was somewhat healthy? :D

    No comment about the cookies though haha. I feel like I need to up my carb intake to prevent myself from eating stuff with a lot of sugar in it.
     
  14. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    When you go for your next yearly medical ask for a full spectrum health check.

    Carbing up - I use to eat cookies lthinoing I was craving sugar but I realised I was just craving food so I adjusted my meal sizes and added an extra meal sometimes.

    All food in general is healthy in moderation. Casually if a tiny piece of dark chocolate keeps you sane then eat it! :)

    Carb counting is easy! Downloading a calorie counting app, but a small weighing scale and the easiest thing is don't count calories from green veg.
     
  15. Bluesoup

    Bluesoup Valued Member

    Besides hearing 'yearly medical' for the first time in my life, you've given me some good ideas. :p

    I'll try looking for a weight scale for food.
     
  16. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Personally I find weighing food and counting calories to be a pain in th backside so I just eat three meals a day and try to get 160grams of protein in (that's a few shakes on top of regular meals)

    Also I work for a hospital but haven't even registered with a doctor!

    Sorry about my grammar, typing on phone.
     
  17. Bluesoup

    Bluesoup Valued Member

    I've been reading some more and doing some more digging and basically my findings are that 'fat' is the thing I want to avoid.

    I'm not sure if I'll be going vegan, but I'm going for a high carb, low fat diet and I'll see if my athletic performance improves or worsens. It's quite easy for me since I use a running app on my phone and take it with me running. I've hit the wall of 1km per 5min and I want to break through to get in the 4:xx range.

    So we'll see.

    Also I've been weightlifting to put on some muscle and support my running, so I can keep track of my progress with that as well.

    I'm changing my grocery shopping list around to make sure I'm getting the absolute smallest amount of fat in my system. I'm cutting down on meat from 6-7 days a week to 1 day a week. I usually buy pretty expensive meat, because I'm very particular about the quality of my meat so it opens up some finances I can spend on the crazy amount of fruit and vegetables I'll be needing.

    As for dairy, I love yogurt a lot and eat 1-2 portions of it every day. So I tried hard to find a low fat one. I even looked at some vegan yogurts made from soy, but I actually found something even better. Unless you're a vegan. It's Greek yogurt. Somehow and I don't quite understand how they actually managed this, but this Greek yogurt literally has 0% fat in it. It's higher in carbs than the others, but has 0,0 fat in there. Which is perfect actually since I'll probably want all the extra carbs I can get.

    I set my target on caloric intake around 3000. I might go for more at some point, but I think 3000 should be fine for now. I'll need to see for myself how much I need to suit my high activity levels and ambition to make muscle gains.

    I might post a workout log to track how I feel and to have an overview of my progress.
     
  18. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    in general i agree with what you're saying. but a couple thoughts...

    taste is subjective. many people i know who are vegan or some version of vegetarian just don't find meat tasty.

    i try to eat a mostly plant-based diet. i do love some good meat, for sure. and i eat yogurt or some other dairy pretty much every day. for me, there is so much more variety in a mostly veggie diet, which meat can't compare to at all. i think it's because i seek out organic and seasonal veggie and i go to fruit and veggie specific markets. a problem that i think most people have is that they don't realize there is such a wide variety of plants, because their markets have the same selection of plants regardless of the season. it was only when i stopped shopping at super markets that i was able to break out of this.

    like...i had no idea what a kohlrabi was until recently. how about ramps? ever had a ramp? i hadn't until about a decade ago when i changed my diet. rabe, lots of different greens, all kinds of different root vegetables, and tons of legumes are now available to me, whereas i never even saw those things at my typical market. i never even saw a celery root in my life until i started getting to a farmer's market.

    sorry for the long winded post. but i just think that for a lot of people, we're pushed into a meats/potatoes/cheese diet because we don't have many choices. that's all.
     
  19. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    some fat is ok. greeks have been practically drinking olive oil for centuries.

    i would just say be careful with highly processed carbs (pasta, breads, etc). those just turn into sugar inside your body.
     
  20. Bluesoup

    Bluesoup Valued Member

    Indeed. My dad always used to bring me to Turkish food supermarkets and they had a big variety of fruits and vegetables. But now when I walk through an average supermarket, there's only really basic stuff when it comes to fruits and vegetables. Sometimes I'll look at what people have in their carts and everyone seems to be getting the same stuff.
     

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