Race is not a social construct

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by CamelSpider, Apr 20, 2017.

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  1. Nachi

    Nachi Valued Member Supporter

    At the time I read experimental studies on about 7 species (it was quite a new topic at the time, probably still is), and I think some traits were found for all.

    I see, that's definitely not what I meant, though. I didn't want to say that for example people from Africa differ from "white" people in this and that. Also because of that I wrote this was found within as well as between populations. I didn't mean to say that "black" people are aggressive or judge a person's "race" based on this. I just wanted to say as a general rule for melanin. Like black-haired people tend to have, in average, some personality traits when compared to readheads. For example.
    Not saying that any ethnic group is in any way better or more/less (genetically) variable. I really hope it didn't sound like that. That would be ridiculous indeed.
     
  2. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Like I said, you'll have to be more explicit about what you're talking about here. Comparing species to interbreeding populations is a nonstarter though.

    I honestly can't follow what claim you're making here - it seems like there's a mismatch between these two quotes. Personality traits are determined by an entire host of genes and their interaction with the environment. I'm unclear as to why you think those are linked to melanin or hair color. "Black" is not a clearly defined genetic trait, it's a social construction applied to any number of natural populations that have sufficient melanin to be considered such. It sounds like you're attempting to use a misunderstanding of science to back up common sense notions, and it just doesn't map out that way.

    Edit: Oops, didn't see the 'black-haired' people. I'd need to see some data on that claim. With the amount of interbreeding between hair colors, I doubt you'd see a substantial amount of covariance.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
  3. Nachi

    Nachi Valued Member Supporter

    Ok, I try to find it a bit difficult to explain myself. :D I will try to be coherent. I am not trying to compare species to populations or anything. I am just saying this fact about melanin was found as a general rule. I read about birds. Different studies on different species (males with more melanin are more attractive, sexual active, fearless, agressive -> tend to be dominant and so on). This was a general rule regardles if found in species or populations (those were studies in one population, not comparing species to species), . It has to do with (eu)melanin's production being somehow connected to the production of testosterone. More melanin usually means more testosterone leading to these personality traits.
    Then, I saw summaries of studies about eumelanin in people that found similar relationship to these personality traits, too. That is all I am saying. It shouldn't matter if people are more inbred or certain ethic groups are. I am not trying to differentiate "races" based on skin colour and say some are more uniform or anything. I don't have much insight in how much has been found about the influence of melanin in people. Nor am I saying that melanin is the only and absolute thing determining these personality traits, of course. So to say: "Yo have dark skin, I better be careful." That would be nonsense.

    I hope it makes more sense, now :D
     
  4. Nachi

    Nachi Valued Member Supporter

    Hmm, I am now not sure if I understand well and also remember well the data I read about. I am not too knowledgeable in physiology, but: The inbreeding would be a different topic, I think. It doesn't matter what other genes you got from your ancestors, only the genes for melanin production matters. And those you would see in the coloration or person's hair, eyes, skin. The production of melanin should have a relationship with some of the personality traits by itself via hormones, regardless of other genes (though I hope I remember well). So it doesn't matter if you discuss species, populations, individuals in one family and so on.
    On the other hand, this would only be some influence, not the only thing determining personality.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
  5. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Yeah, I think you're making some rather substantial leaps of logic that aren't grounded in fact. This sounds like another form of phrenology; you've got a lumpy head so we can make some leaps about what sort of person you're more likely to be.
     
  6. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Not inbreeding INTERbreeding. Interbreeding would mean that no matter what color hair you've got, it doesn't necessarily match up to other genes.

    Not really, there's also the receptors for hormones that are genetically controlled. Hence you can have situations in which a person has XY chromosomes but develops as phenotypically female.

    Do you think your personality changes when you tan?
     
  7. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    People who go into tanning salons do tend to be a bit deficient in the grey matter department. Correlation or causation? Hmmmm???
     
  8. Nachi

    Nachi Valued Member Supporter

    Ok, maybe I am not the best at explaining, but I have obviously written enough :D If you are bored sometime, read some papers about melanin and personality/behavioural syndromes. I am sure the explanation of what I was trying to say, including the underlying mechanisms there will be explained there better. It actually can be quite an interesting read ;)
     
  9. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Weirdly, it changes more when you fake tan :thinking:
     
  10. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    I have. They seem a better revival of scientific racism than substance.
     
  11. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    All I could find was mention of a 1970's study about differences in motor function between eye colours that extrapolated those findings to make general statements about personality differences and attribute them to melanin content in the eyes. Then some dodgy questionnaire work based on those findings.

    Then I found some blatantly racist stuff made to look like a scientific paper that compared imprisonment rates of different ethnic groups without controlling for any other factor.

    All pretty dodgy stuff :dunno:

    https://research-repository.griffith.edu.au/bitstream/handle/10072/57090/91050_1.pdf?sequence=1

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886912000840
     
  12. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Yeah that's the one I read. My jaw dropped open, lol.
     
  13. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Anyway, sorry to see the deadly cameltoe has been banned.

    Hopefully one day he will overcome his internal confusion and rage, then find a nice African or Arab man to settle down with in a loving sexual relationship :)
     
  14. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

  15. Nachi

    Nachi Valued Member Supporter

    Oh, ok, that is not what I meant. I don't have my university's access to papers anymore, but it's probably read the animal studies or general vertebrate ones, like:

    In vertebrates, melanin-based coloration is often associated with variation in physiological and behavioural traits. We propose that this association stems from pleiotropic effects of the genes regulating the synthesis of brown to black eumelanin. The most important regulators are the melanocortin 1 receptor and its ligands, the melanocortin agonists and the agouti-signalling protein antagonist. On the basis of the physiological and behavioural functions of the melanocortins, we predict five categories of traits correlated with melanin-based coloration. A review of the literature indeed reveals that, as predicted, darker wild vertebrates are more aggressive, sexually active and resistant to stress than lighter individuals. Pleiotropic effects of the melanocortins might thus account for the widespread covariance between melanin-based coloration and other phenotypic traits in vertebrates.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18644658

    or: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21300052

    I won't argue about the physiology. I am not good with it and forgot the principles behind this.
    Unfortunatelly, the fulltext can't be apparently downloaded for free, but at least the abstract explains what I had trouble explaining. Very roughly :D
     
  16. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Right, but you're still trying to map those conclusions onto human beings which... I mean, yeah doesn't really hold water.
     
  17. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Thread locked because CamelSpider is gone, and there was too much incomprehensible gibberish ("you're as horizontal and vertical as the book" ????), and there were some TOS issues.

    If someone actually wants to salvage an intelligible conversation without TOS violations, he or she may try.
     
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