Technique counters and redirection

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by JSun, Oct 1, 2005.

  1. JSun

    JSun Valued Member

    In CMA, for every chin na technique there is a counter chin na, equal and opposite, an antithesis, if you will. It falls back on the theory of Ying/Yang. I realize that I'm just beginning to learn dynamic Kuk Sool techniques. Up until Chuhng Di, most of the techniques are static. We don't even practice the full technique with break falls yet. So, my question is this...are there counter techniques that are learned later in training, or are breakfalls the only logical extension of technique execution? Is there any training in Kuk Sool along the lines of sticky hands or push hands? I was also wondering how important redirection is in technique execution for other Kuk Sool practitioners. It seems that redirection would be an essential aspect of any technique based on You Won Hwa.
     
  2. TXKukSoolBB

    TXKukSoolBB Valued Member

    It will be interesting to see fellow KSW'ers opinion on this. If I am understanding your question correctly, in the way that I define redirectional...just about all of the techiniques could fall under this umbrella if you carry the technique all the way through the finish (fall). Example...you attack me (here), I execute (you name the technique) and I finish with you (here) hopefully ending the attack. Specifically, using You Won Hwa, I believe that the first strong taste of these techniques would be Too Ki. There are many more in the JKN level and above (as you would imagine). With that said, you will also see just about all of your underbelt techniques or attributes of those techniques in your advanced training. Hence the value of a strong foundation in your technique executions (stance, locks, balance, speed, falls, and Pressure Point applications).
     
  3. JSun

    JSun Valued Member

    More specifically, by redirection I ment using an opponents force of resistance to set up a chained technique. I apply Sohn Mohk Soo #1, my opponent resists the rolling of the wrist to the left by applying pressure to the right, so I set up a technique that moves to the right, i.e. Sohn Mohk Soo #2, using his/her resistant force towards the opposing direction.


    I got that impression from the upperbelts at my dojang. One of the many reasons I'm picking people's minds that have more Kuk Sool experience here at MAP :D

    How about the sticky hands/push hands aspect of training? Is there something similar in upperbelt training? I was also wondering if grappeling techniques were addressed in greater detail than just Mohk Joh Leu Ki. Seems like that's just a minute amount of techniques to address ground fighting in such a encompassing system like Kuk Sool.
     
  4. ember

    ember Valued Member

    We've trained something vaguely similar to this in our BBC classes, working with Son Pae Gi against resistance. (Son Pae Gi #1 is nearly impossible if the person is using their bodyweight to hold the hand down - but #2 works fine for that case.)

    One of the PSBNs who shows up at our school occasionally will have us do something similar, even in Intermediate level classes. Partners line up, and people are asked to practice give & take, one partner pushing on a shoulder, the other partner giving way, and back & forth.

    There's also a belt sparring technique that's kinda similar, I've seen used with white belts.
     
  5. KSW_123

    KSW_123 Valued Member


    Short answer first. Counter techniques, formally no. Push hands/sticky hands, no. Redirection is heavily used.

    Now the long answer.
    I think your question is very good but premature. Coming from a different art it seems as though you are trying to place techniques in a reference frame that you understand. That is totally understandable. What I suggest is, do not forget your question, but put in on the back burner for a little while. If you are serious about getting really good at techniques then you will not mind the long journey. Here are my suggestions on getting into Kuk Sool techniques. You may already be doing some of these things now already.

    Please do not take this advice the wrong way. I learned Ki Bon Soo 21 years ago. I still enjoy practicing them and I still learn new things. My journey is definitely nowhere near complete.

    The rules for following these steps are don’t start the next step till the step you are on is pretty good. Next practice on the steps you know, i.e. don’t stop practicing step 1 just because you are practicing step 2.


    Step zero. Find a partner with similar goals to yourself. This is not completely necessary but will make your journey much more fun.

    Step number one is memory. I don’t mean that you can remember what Sohn Mohk Soo #7 is eventually, but like a word in your vocabulary. One really good way to get this kind of memory is called 5 minute techniques. The theory goes that no matter what level you are, you should be able to finish all of your techniques in five minutes. The important part of this type of practice is to do all the steps (literally with your feet) but do not put any power into your hands. Your partner does not try to resist you, even helps by grabbing in the right spot or kick/punch at right time. No falling is done. If you don’t know that many techniques then try to finish them multiple times over.

    Step number two, I like to call Taking It. Here you perform the technique to completion with your partner offering no resistance. The catch is you need to make the person tap. Never snap the joints or you will damage your partner. Instead, gradually increase the pressure until your partner can longer take the pain. When having techniques performed on you take as much pain as you can handle before you tap. Only take dull pain, if it feels sharp tap immediately. The process of building up ligament and tendon strength is painful and slow. (Note that this advice is for joint locking techniques.) A couple of general rules of thumb you might want to considering following. When you grab, grab hard. When grabbing pressure points do not get into the habit of resetting if you miss. Start the technique over again. (Yeah, I know it adds a lot of time.) If you cannot cause pain to your partner, do not let your first reaction be to apply more power. Try playing with angle first. At this level it is o.k. for your partner to fall for you at first. Work up to throwing your partner with no help.

    Step number three is static resistance. Your partner resists as much as he can. The only rule being your partner does not reposition himself by moving his feet. This can be very frustrating at first, but believe it or not, with hard training, you will get to the point where you can do almost every technique with someone holding you very hard. Once you pass the breaking point of the technique slow down to the level of your partner’s falling ability. If your partner is strong but new to falling, practicing techniques this way is very dangerous. If you feel weak when doing these techniques, resist the urge to lift weights, do more techniques, keep on trying. When you don’t have a partner, practice any weapons you know.

    Without specific advice on techniques, you may find it impossible to perform certain techniques with resistance. So I will go over Ki Bon Soo 1 and the most common mistakes I have seen. Hopefully there is someone at your school willing and able to help you on all your techniques. Or you could just ask on MAP.

    Mistake number 1. Incorrect grabbing. Do not allow any gaps between you and your partner’s hand. Do not touch the wrist joint. This will just support it or prevent you from achieving full extension.
    Mistake number 2. At the end of the 2nd step when your partner’s arm is extended make sure that his fingers are pointing down. Most people let the fingers point away from the partner’s body, thus not creating enough stress in the forearm and elbow to allow you to take your partner’s balance. You might still be able to pull the technique off if you make this mistake but it will be brute strength that is getting the job done.
    Mistake number 3. When turning, people like lift their partners arm. The problem is that it is quite easy for your partner then to bend his elbow and ram it on your head. At which point your back is exposed to any number of attacks. To avoid all this, do not raise your partner’s hand while you turn and kneel.
    Mistake number 4. Turn and kneel, not turn then kneel, or kneel then turn. If you don’t do both at the same time then you will not be able to generate enough enegy to throw your partner.
    Mistake number 5. Not pulling between your legs. You should not have to move forward to place your knee on your partner. That takes time as well as disrupts your balance.


    After you have practiced step 3 for a while, you should revisit your original questions. Clearly from the little Ki Bon Soo discussion there are counters to techniques. They are not taught formally though. What is Push Hands anyway except for a, very good, energy sensing exercise. My opinion is that if you practice techniques correctly you are doing an energy sensing exercise. If you are practicing at step three then you already know redirection is key in many techniques.



    If you think any of this advice is useful I’d be happy to write more ideas down, there are many more ways to practice techniques, but I gotta go now
     
  6. Wolf

    Wolf Totalitarian Dictator

    What He Said!!! That's awesome advice!!!
     
  7. baubin2

    baubin2 New Member

    KSW_123, excellent post!

    That said, I would pay good money to see Kuk Sa Nim do all of his 3600-odd techniques in five minutes. Just to put it into perspective, he would have to do 12 techniques a second in order to manage it :) A first degree black belt might be able to perform all of their techniques if they were very, very good; they would be able to go at a rate of just over one technique per second. But no matter how good you are, I don't think you can reach a rate of 12 techniques per second, it's just too fast.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2005
  8. KSW_123

    KSW_123 Valued Member


    I'd pay too. The best I've ever done is Wa Ki.
     

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