MMA History

Discussion in 'MMA' started by Cross_Trainer, Apr 5, 2007.

  1. Cross_Trainer

    Cross_Trainer Valued Member

    As a comparatively recent sport, there are plenty of people coming into MMA as fans without knowing the massive history that precedes it. This thread is dedicated to all of the illustrious predecessors of Fedor, Liddell, and company. From Petter to Dolman to Mas Oyama.


    I'll start us off...

    [​IMG]

    Nicolaes Petter, Dutch Wrestler/MMA ist, 17th century

    http://ejmas.com/jwma/articles/2000/jwmaart_steenput_1000.html
    http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Petter/petter.htm



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    Chris Dolman, Early RINGS Champion

    http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showthread.php?t=452260


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    Masahiko Kimura, Judoka and Vale Tudo Competitor

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masahiko_Kimura
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2wO3dHUYwQ"]judo vs jujutsu - YouTube[/ame]



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    James J. Jeffries, Heavyweight Champion and a Greco-Roman Wrestler

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_J._Jeffries
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CauVMvNspIY"]Jim Jeffries training - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVa0GNDAP8E"]Jim Jeffries-Gus Ruhlin #2 - Nov 15 1901 - Naimark - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj2jOpoecfc"]Jim Jeffries-Tom Sharkey # 2 - Nov 3 1899 - YouTube[/ame]



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    Helio Gracie, founder of Gracie JiuJitsu

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hélio_Gracie
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMAu0A-vQm8"]Helio Gracie vs Kato - YouTube[/ame]



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    Mas Oyama, Founder of Kyokushin and the All-Japan Karate Championship

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masutatsu_Oyama
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nhv6eDCrTY"]YouTube[/ame]


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    Carlson Gracie, Vale Tudo and BJJ Champion

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlson_Gracie
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxSe2VqV1qU"]Carlson Gracie - A Tribute - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2007
  2. Cross_Trainer

    Cross_Trainer Valued Member

  3. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    In my opinion MMA is the oldest, most traditional martial art in existence. It has the most basic and obvious philosophy - do whatever works. The narrowing down of martial arts happened later.
     
  4. Oversoul

    Oversoul Valued Member

    Except for knees to the head on the ground and kicks to the head of a downed opponent. :(
     
  5. Linguo

    Linguo Valued Member

    you have to go to Hawaii to do all that fun stuff ;)
     
  6. Kenpo_Dave

    Kenpo_Dave Valued Member

    The concept is certainly, but modern, Western MMA came about entirely separately from the old systems. The modern MMA is a sport and nothing more, where as the old Eastern MMA is as much about actual combat as it is about sport. Now of course the two are mixing. Kyokushin based MMA is very common in Europe and with the likes of George St Pierre and a few others is slowly working its way into the big events.

    One person that should be on the original list more than some others listed, is Jon Bluming (Kyokushin 10th Dan, Judo 9th Dan) . He has trained people from Chris Doleman to Semmy Schilt.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2007
  7. Cross_Trainer

    Cross_Trainer Valued Member

    Agreed. I actually had a list of 60+ guys who could make a claim to MMA lineage, and Bluming was close to the top of list. Unfortunately, I didn't have time to post them all.

    A fellow named William Miller is also comparable--he was one of the top competitors in the world in boxing, wrestling, and weightlifting at the same time during the 1880's.
     
  8. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    I stumbled across this gem, and think it needed to see light agian. My art chi do kwon is from the 70s and could be seen as mma. Martial man feel free to sound off lol.

    Any way there was a few recent threads that were close to this but none actually laid claim to mma lineage.

    Can one truly claim a Lineage to the true mma? Or are we stepping on ninjutsu ground here jk ninjas :)
     
  9. bodyshot

    bodyshot Brown Belt Zanshin Karate

    Although this is an alright conversation topic its also laughable at the same time. The problem is that MMA guys today dont want to except the truth, they just wanna ride the wave till it crashes. Hopefully you guys continue talking about this because Id like to see where it goes.
     
  10. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    Personally, no. I don't think anyone can claim "MMA" lineage. Its a sport thats still evolving.
    You can probably track "lineage" of each individual fighter but as MMA as a whole, I don't really think so.
     
  11. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    The truth is undeniable;

    People have been mixing martial arts and competing in open formats forever.

    MMA is the term used exclusively to describe the modern sport with the four ounce gloves.
     
  12. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    All Styles would probably claim humble beginnings. when they were first forming, and not knowing that they were indeed a style of the future.

    Imagine a gym 200 years from now claiming a direct lineage back to silva or chadderz. would that be no different than modern day TKD, or shotokan?

    I would bet It would be very different than today's 4 oz glove mma today, yet it would probably claim to be the original and true style as taught by ( insert name here)
     
  13. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Are you saying that you think eventually MMA will have it's own style and syllabus? Not an unbelievble thought, clubs happen. For bow however, MMA only describes the modern sport and is not a style.
     
  14. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    I do believe so yes. In time mma as a self defense or military style will be the norm.

    I do not believe it will be like the MMA of today, but it will be accepted as much as krav maga is today, as its own style.
     
  15. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    It's not happened with boxing or wrestling.

    Notable people have shaped the form of boxing during its history, especially the rules, but there's nothing like the "founder worship" found in oriental MA.

    I don't see it happening with MMA.
     
  16. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I also think that claiming direct lineage from Nicolaes Petter to MMA is at best a credulous stretch, and at worst plain dumb.
     
  17. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    No? perhaps wrestling was destroyed by the wwf, and Hulk Hogan. Boxing by Don king..... I see your point there. I know a person who claims to have trained with a few trainers removed from Benny Lenord. To me thats kind of like Oriental founder worship. Just not as old.
     
  18. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    But boxing is older than many "traditional" martial arts.

    And isn't Greco-Roman wrestling still taught in American schools?
     
  19. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Boxing is really, really, really old, But Greco-Roman wrestling is very new, barely a hundred years old. It's not "traditional" in the sense you mean. It definitely owes its existence to traditional styles of wrestling (using the term properly). Example of a traditional wrestling style (in other words both old and handed down culturally through family/religion/law/etc) would be Cornish wrestling or late French wrestling styles. In fact Greco-Roman was once known colloquially throughout Western Europe as "French Wrestling" until it was renamed by an Italian. You can't make this stuff up!!

    MMA is not (yet, anyway) a traditional art in that it is not engrained in any sort of cultural, religious, familial lineages in the same way "traditional" martial arts are. There's just not been enough time. Anywhere you look at a traditional art, they are culturally ingrained in the history, religion, or philosophy in some way.MMA (watching it) is culturally ingrained at this point because it's clearly very popular. But the training for it is not the same...what would a "traditional MMA lineage" look like? Maybe a father learning MMA, teaching his sons MMA, and having them go win competitions then start their own school. Those sons would pass down their father's personal "MMA traditions" and there you go, 200 years later you've got people claiming lineage to Bas Rutten or whoever :) I guess my point is that MMA (today, not 100 years in the future) is a commodity anybody can buy, accessible to anybody not just those part of a family, or lineage, etc. It's a recent commercial success because of that. But 100 years from now, there might be whole generations of families that took part in MMA, got the various types of trainings..."crossed over", like the Gracies. From there you get a legacy, and with a martial legacy you draw in martial artists.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2014
  20. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    yes it is. Both boxing and Greco wrestling were taught in the u.s military untill the end of ww1. both made a comeback in ww2 but lost favor to a judu jujitsu hybrid. today the U.S Army is testing a system surprisingly similar to mma. This system is also close to the one I study back in the 90s while on active duty.

    It just hit me that the U.S government was on to ju jitsu boxing, and judu as effective arts even then! WHOA! MIND BLOWN!

    Any way it is nothing new but I do see someone claiming it as a style of its own in the future. Most of the mma clubs I come across today only teach what works in the ring from the top arts and leave the rest out. This has in a sense made it a sport art.

    Perhaps you are correct about mma not reaching the legendary status of TMA's. I dont see that as a bad thing. I however have seen a deep spell of awesome placed on the less educated about any combat sport/art. including wwf bad tv wrestling! just watch you tube for the ignorant backyard hooligan madness. I sadly admit I did some of it as a child of the 80s.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2014

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