Minimum requirement for self-defense (physical side of it)

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by EdiSco, Feb 18, 2017.

  1. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    Ok. So getting evidence based, I can produce at least 3 clips off the top of my head of real time non scripted situations where boxing fundamental and basic boxing is being used successfully. Some even against more than one person.
    Are there any of guys who can be proven to have trained sim days doing the same? At least 3.
    And if so what's the details that's making them more successful than the guys who use boxing?

    Now, I expect I could possibly get ragged on and I'll be disappointed but I'm not coming from an argumentative view, simply an evidence based one. Not talk or word or anecdotal or anything like that. Actually seeing things that show the transference in real world, non scripted events.

    I'm not arguing or trying to be right or anything. Just saying, ok fair enough, a suggestion has been made...where is the proof?
     
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I think you misunderstand what SIM days actually are - they aren't a "style" they are a lab
     
  3. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    Wouldn't pretty much all altercations that the police are involved in be classed as people who have trained "sim days" ?
     
  4. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Yup - in fact that is pretty much exclusively how we train under stress from an organizational perspective
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2017
  5. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I mean... I've got to be honest, I feel Youtube is an decent reference for styles being used in fights because somebody, somewhere, has CCTV footage of somone getting double legged or getting their face boxed off in a "street" scenario. We also get the odd judo/aikido/ Wing Chun guy putting in a shift and decking someone.
     
  6. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    The proof is in the pudding. As Hannibal said this is nearly exclusively the way the police train, add to that military, corrections, and many more.

    Simulating isn't a style, it's about gearing your training, methodological, verbal, and physical, to a specific context and training it in as real a way as possible within the limits of safety to familiarize people with that exact context. For example SWAT guys will all go use the range. They become good marksman. But doing room clearing exercises is how they translate that into effective skills in their specific context. Another perfect example is police arrests. Have someone role play the bad guy and resist while the other guy tries to cuff him.

    So a simulation for self defence training includes components which are social, environmental, psychological, methodological, physical, and variations on situations all specific to the context of self defence. So while boxing can be used in the physical portion in certain circumstances because you've trained in fighting, you're still missing the other 99% of self defence training specific to those circumstances. Those are the skills you use the majority of the time and the physical skills are your backup for when everything else fails. That 99% is context specific and needs to be taught and trained within that specific context. That's why simulating self defence situations includes role play, common situations, de-escalation, numbers, physical positioning, initiation, and more, which are all specific to the situations you're training for.

    So for example teaching use of force to security guards who are working in a "hands off" site, or a medical facility, or a responder context where they're likely to make a lot of arrests; those all look different in certain aspects but for them to be effective training you want to simulate the situations they're likely to encounter in as close an approximation as you can manage safely...just like with sport-combat training. You train for a boxing match by boxing under the same rules, with the same time limits, the same rounds, the same rest, the same way you would in the fight. Even preparing for specific opponents by sparring with similar opponents in terms of size and style.

    So what you're doing content-wise matters because of context, but once you've got the requisite material for that context the style of training is always the same; simulate what you're doing as closely as you can with safety in mind.
     
  7. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Your first premise is flawed, you're confusing frequency of observation with efficacy. Running away from an assailant may be a better form of self defence than any form of fighting, but there may not many videos of it.

    mitch
     
  8. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    Boxing as the example that has been given, has been proven to work in all kinds of areas of confrontation since the beginning of man. It's not perfect or the be all and end all but it's effective and has been and can be shown to be.
    So the suggestion that there is a better way to prepare has been given.
    Great.
    I'm simply wondering if this can be shown.
    Why should someone not box regularly and compete at some level, now and then, and instead do this other thing?
    There's no matching evidence that this other way prepares a person better on a physical level. Or is there?

    Ok the police etc use simulation as part of their training.
    How does this transfer to civilians?
    They are not trying to arrest, clear a building or be security in any capacity.
    Police have back up, weapons, start from a position of authority etc.
    How is that relevant to a civilian?
    Is the suggestion that training like the politice or SWAT is better for SD?
    How is that even practical or make sense?
     
  9. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    You still seem to be coming at this from the wrong direction to me.
    How can adding some context to your training be a bad thing ? No one is suggesting that boxing (to use your own example) is no good for sd , or that competing at some level won't enhance your skills.
    What sim days are good for is giving you the opportunity to try those skills out in more likely situations , multiples or weapons for example , and with different goals , verbal de escalation or protecting others maybe.
     
  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    1) It offers multiple resolutions to scenarios, meaning there is not just a "fight" option
    2) It makes you aware of UoF escalations and legal underpinnings behind every action, decision or consequence
    3) It allows for environmental considerations to come into play
    4) It allows for more than one person (either pro or agin) and the scenario can again start as one thing an morph into another
    5) it allows for development of "soft skills" (verbal) and pre-attack recognition
    6) It allows for debriefs for what went wrong, what went right and in many cases can be repeated to ensure the lessons are retained

    It terms of prep for SD it is FAR superior than "having a hammer", because it does not make every problem look like a nail

    The difference between law enforcement authority and non-law enforcement is not as wide as you think and typically covers equipment arrest grounds....in terms of SD the actual laws/rules are pretty much identical
     
  11. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Spot on. It also,
    7) allows for people to decide whether to act or not in scenarios where they are just bystanders.
    8) allows for scenarios where relatives or those you have responsibility for may be involved (partners, parents, children, children of others).

    I could go on, but Hannibal sums it up nicely with his hammer analogy. This is also why Sim Days are, in my opinion, far superior to much other armoured assailant training out there. The complexity and realism they offer is far beyond the "here's a guy to beat on" seen in some training.

    Mitch
     
  12. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Also...it goes against the goals of seeking some degree of success in self defence by going into a boxing gym and sparring and competing and getting banged up, black eyes, busted noses or lips, etc.
    The kind of stuff you are actually trying to avoid.

    "I would like to avoid getting hurt or beaten up in a violent situation = Go and get hurt and beaten up in boxing instead!" is an odd kind of answer.

    IMHO the decision to get involved in a "damaging" activity, when your ultimate desire is to avoid damage, needs to be carefully considered.

    Although, don't get me wrong, there are other reasons and benefits to doing damaging or hard sparring/training that may make it worthwhile to do even if you ultimately wish to be safe from harm.
     
  13. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    WE WANT THE THANKS BUTTON BACK!!!
     
  14. EdiSco

    EdiSco Likes his anonymity

    I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't enjoy it. There are lots of other positives, as you said. I'm already a much calmer and confident person. Have a lot more respect for myself and others. Believe it or not, it's fun too! Besides physical and mental toughness, it builds discipline! I'd rather my son was doing a Judo or boxing class rather than sitting in front of computer playing games or on the phone like a zombie. I wish my parents had got me into this at a young age :/
     
  15. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    I think I'm coming a it from a great direction.
    Modern, evidence based, scientific thinking and making decisions on training and use of time and money based on something proven to work.
    I'm coming at it from a direction of ,ok , suggestions get made. Let's look at that.
    The suggestion was that boxing is useful, but this other way of training is better.
    I'm looking at it and not just taking it on word. It's how it should be.
    Anyone who says otherwise is not worth listening to or training with or has an agenda maybe.

    Answers have been given. No clips, but interesting replies.

    Don't forget too that this thread was mainly about physical preparation.
    Boxing fundamentals have been proven and can be proven to have been used in all kinds of situations.
    This other way has not, to me anyway, for physical preparation.
    With the right mindset and correct context a full contact style like boxing is proven to be great for SD.
     
  16. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    At his point you're either wilfully misunderstanding the point or it's going straight over your head.
    SIM days are not stand alone training , they're an opportunity to test what you already do/know in scenarios closer to self defence than the ring.
    No one is advocating them as stand alone training and no one is suggesting that boxing is a sub optimal delivery system.
     
  17. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Blind men and the elephant :)
     
  18. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    You don't know what "scientific" means.

    YouTube clips are anecdotal evidence.
     
  19. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    So my 70 year old Mum wishes to get some self defence knowledge....she should go down her local boxing gym, do some heavy sparring and arrange some amateur bouts?
    Clearly that's probably not the way to go for her is it? Depending on the gym and how much of a badass my mum is of course.
    In her case a different course would probably work better.

    I think...and I may be off here that the "sport martial arts are good for self defence" hard line comes mainly from young men?
    Because something like boxing fits in with the kind of violence they are likely to face (social/ego type violence) and they are physically capable of doing the training to get the benefits.
    Outside of the demographic I think you need to assess and triangulate a person requirements and train for what they can achieve in the time given.

    And of course this doesn't denigrate boxing and sport martial arts at all. They obviously churn out people that are "handy" in sport and real encounters and offer much potential beyond just "sport fighting".

    Personally I've always wanted to be someone that can operate in all sorts of "sport" formats AND whack a numpty pre-emptively and leg it if I needed to.
     
  20. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Although I do understand your greater point,
    I'm not too sure that your assertion is correct, video evidence would be independent empirical evidence, still subject to many many biases, but still independent and empirical.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

    ''Anecdotal evidence is evidence from anecdotes, i.e., evidence collected in a casual or informal manner and relying heavily or entirely on personal testimony''

    ''The term is sometimes used in a legal context to describe certain kinds of testimony which are uncorroborated by objective, independent evidence such as notarized documentation, photographs, audio-visual recordings, etc.''
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2017

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