Insurance For Free MA Class

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by thinkingbody, Jan 22, 2017.

  1. thinkingbody

    thinkingbody Valued Member

    Hi, I have a question relating to insurance.

    I want to offer a free martial arts class, but if I do will I need insurance?

    If the class is free then technically the people I will be training with will not be my clients, so I won't have a legal obligation greater than say playing a game of football with friends.

    I've read that when people engage in such activities that they assume a certain amount of risk and that this can act as a legal protection to a certain degree.

    So if you go to a boxing class and get punched in the face and try to sue then your case will not get through court because a certain amount of assumed risk i.e. the risk of being punched in the face, is assumed when taking part in the sport of boxing.

    Should I get people to sign waivers regarding injury before they train with me even through I won't be charging?

    I've heard different things about waivers, that they are a legal protection and also that they are useless.

    I live in Queensland Australia so I guess the laws are different in different places, so if you know where I should be able to find this information I would much appreciate you pointing me in the right direction.

    I'm not planning on having a store front. I'm thinking of meeting in a public place, maybe a park or my local university or youth centre.

    The reason I'm asking is because I want to offer the class for free, but if I have to pay out of my own pocket for insurance then that wouldn't make sense.

    Cheers
     
  2. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    I'm just guessing but I would think that if you offer to train people you also take on the responsibility to make sure that the class is safe , whether they pay for the class or not.

    Perhaps you should consult with a lawyer in your state and ask what the local liability laws are.

    I know as a physio that if I treat someone for free that I am more liable than a non trained person doing treatment for free. The assumption is that if you are trained then you have a greater responsibility irrespective of whether the person gets the treatment for free or not.

    Better safe than sorry eh!

    LFD
     
  3. thinkingbody

    thinkingbody Valued Member

    I think you might be right, but there are some complications due to the fact that I am not claiming to be a martial arts teacher in the strict sense, as I don't have the authority from any style or organisation to teach a set style.

    So, if i organise a game of football, and I give people who decide to play with me some pointers regarding football, and they hurt themselves, am I still liable? Keep in mind that I have never claimed to be an expert on playing or teaching football.

    This is why the phrase "martial arts class" is kinda slippery here, because what I really want to do is organise something like a martial arts study group, rather than a class where I am the authority. The reason I want to do this is because I want to train too, not just instruct.
     
  4. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    I run a free (tai chi) class in a local park (uk) and I don't have any insurance. I've been doing it for a few years now and I've got a couple of tricks I use.
    1) Absolute beginners, who I've never met before, start off doing absolute basics, no partner work, no falling or tumbling, jumping etc. This gives me a bit of time to know them and their temperament (as well as starting a solid foundation in relevant body mechanics etc).
    2) for their first forrays into partner work, I work with them myself, so I fully control the pace of whats happening and no one else is at risk of getting hurt. This helps the new person get to know what is expected in certain drills/exercises.
    3) no one is made to do anything they don't want to. If someone doesn't want to do partner work, they work on basics.
    4) if I get a bad vibe from someone, then I bore the heck out of them, and 9 times out of 10, they don't come back. I've had more than a few macho guys come along wanting to fight and be top dog. They end up spending an hour and a half doing taichi walking exercises and standing neigong.

    I'm not recommending that you do or do not go ahead with your plans;- these are just a few tricks I've worked out over the years.
     
  5. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    I think the problem is that you say you are offering a class. Even if this is free the law may say that there is an implied contract between you and the student and there may be legal liabilities imposed on you by this implied contract. (Implied contracts are real things in uk law e.g if you get on a bus there is an implied contract that you will pay the fare - this makes it possible to use a bus without signing a contract every time.)

    Acknowledgments and waivers do have their place but they do not indemnify against claims of negligence.

    Only a trained legal professional could give you an answer - and that might cost more than getting insurance.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2017
  6. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    If you don't have the authority or qualifications you shouldn't. Be teaching - period

    If it is two people of similar level training together that is fine because there is common ground, but from the sounds of it you are taking people with no actual.experience and teaching them...Which is not fine

    If they want to learn an art send them to a class or better yet take them to the one you train at yourself
     
  7. thinkingbody

    thinkingbody Valued Member

    The reason I want to start my own class is because I have two goals I believe I can achieve.

    1. Teach better martial arts than the krav maga schools that I have been to. Even though I have no formal qualifications I believe I can do this.

    2. Teach safer martial arts than the mma gyms I've trained at. I believe that I can also do this.

    My main goal is to do a striking martial art that is safe from traumatic brain injury and useful for self defence.

    Something like this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9paSKOGs5GQ
     
  8. thinkingbody

    thinkingbody Valued Member

    Those are some good pointers. Thanks.
     
  9. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Quoted for Truth.
     
  10. thinkingbody

    thinkingbody Valued Member

    The krav maga instructors that I've met all paid top dollar for their qualifications and authority, and in my opinion know relatively little about actually fighting. I figure that if I can do a better job then them and maintain a high level of safety for participants, and offer the class for free, and be totally honest about my lack of formal qualifications, that its not such a bad thing.
     
  11. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Have you any competition or real life experience to replace the formal qualifications?

    Otherwise purely being better then KM by default is hardly a high aim.

    edit - your background seems to be karate and some MMA, have you competed in MMA/Thai/wrestling/judo/BJJ, have you any qualifications in Thai/wrestling/judo/BJJ? If not, why not?
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2017
  12. thinkingbody

    thinkingbody Valued Member

    I've competed in BJJ, and I love BJJ and continue to practice it, but point competition for BJJ is pretty lame in my opinion, although I will probably compete again if I get the chance. I've never competed in muay thai or boxing. I got to the level where my muay thai was good enough that my trainer wanted me to start competing, but I threw in the towel because I learned of the cognitive decline that boxers are prone to and it frightened me. I have been in some street fights, but nothing special. I work as a prison guard so I'm exposed to a bit of real life violence for what its worth.

    The real reason I want to do this is because I want to practice a striking martial art that is safe from accumulated traumatic brain injury. Check out the video I've posted to hannibal.I've been in contact with the uk nippon kempo association, they have an online course that they will be starting soon that I might give a go if its not too expensive.

    Well KM is everywhere these days and apart from some of the weapons disarms and the positional awareness stuff its pretty lame. If I can do something better than that which is safe I will be improving the state of martial arts in my local area. It may not be a high aim, but at least it is one I think I can achieve.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2017
  13. Latikos

    Latikos Valued Member

    Who will decide whether it's better or not?
     
  14. thinkingbody

    thinkingbody Valued Member

    That's easy, sparring, or maybe some points based competition like the video I posted. Honestly, if I get this thing off the ground and someone shows up that consistently beats me at sparring I would be happy for them to teach the class and I can be the student.

    That's the problem I found with KM, there was nowhere near enough sparring, and the teacher never joins in, probably because they don't want to look bad. I've asked one of my KM instructors to spar with me and he just ignored me. They don't like it because they want to maintain their false sense of superiority.
     
  15. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Go to a class, gain a proper qualification then revisit your plans

    Honestly you THINK you are good enough.... You aren't- trust me

    Merely saying you are better than Krav is like saying kicked the gut is better than getting kicked in the nuts

    I guarantee that there will be plenty of solid gyms near you.that will offer you and any prospective clients of yours a far better training experience
     
  16. thinkingbody

    thinkingbody Valued Member

    "Honestly you THINK you are good enough.... You aren't- trust me"

    You might be right, but you've never seen me move, so you don't know what your talking about. I might post a video of my bag work another day that you can critique if you like, at least then you will have something concrete to base your assumptions on.

    I still think that as long as you can teach the basics of posture and movement and you do enough sparring you will learn some helpful martial skills.

    "Merely saying you are better than Krav is like saying kicked the gut is better than getting kicked in the nuts"

    Please explain this statement. I am not arguing one technique over another. I am arguing that the way a particular technique is taught and practised matters. KM nut kicks are a great technique, but they don't teach it properly for the most part because they don't practice them on resisting opponents which can be done safely with the correct protective equipment.

    "I guarantee that there will be plenty of solid gyms near you.that will offer you and any prospective clients of yours a far better training experience."

    My problem with the boxing,mma and may thai schools near me is that these martial arts cause accumulated traumatic brain injury which can result in early onset dementia. As much as I love martial arts, I don't want my kids spoon feeding me and changing my diaper at 50 because I like to fight. I think there is a safe way to fight using the right equipment, I find it frustrating that other martial artists haven't recognised this. I think nippon kempo is probably the most developed martial art in this sense, but there are no schools near me as it is a relatively rare martial art.
     
  17. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Impact causes that trauma....The addition of fancy helmets changes nothing

    Competitive - and by that I mean prolonged competition - fighters have an increased risk but that is sheer volume of hits. Most gyms (in fact the overwhelming majority) offer safe and effective training with correct pressure.

    This is why I consider you unqualified and not suitable - your perceptions and attitudes toward the arts are erroneous and display a lack of experience
     
  18. thinkingbody

    thinkingbody Valued Member

    Well my subjective experience is that head gear does in fact reduce trauma, and this can be seen in the nippon kempo matches online. They take some massive hits, and no one gets knocked out. In fact, most of the time it looks as if they are not really effected at all.

    If the trauma is so bad then why is no one being knocked out?

    Also, when I wrote to the UK nippon kempo association one of the instructors claimed that they had a number of physicians as students who believed that the kind of force that was taken to the head in nippon kempo was not consistent with brain trauma of the kind that would bring on early onset dementia.

    I have sparred with head gear and without and in my opinion the face shield is what reduces the trauma. I am yet to use the nippon kempo style helmet, but that is next on the list and I'm told it is superior to other helmets.

    Again, I am yet to see a knock out punch or kick in nippon kempo, so if you can find one I would love to see it.

    Also, taking big hits in sparring is something that happens. It is a part of training a striking art. If you are moving as fast as you can then you will hit hard, there's no way around that.

    Competition oriented gyms do try to maintain a certain level of safety, and I think that is starting to become more prevalent as the facts of concussion syndrome continue to be explored. But, I do BJJ with competitive fighters and I've seen the knock outs, I've heard about the blackouts, the migrains and I've seen the old boxing coaches that don't look quite right, and I've come to the conclusion: that is not my way.

    And I sincerely believe that the use of proper protective equipment can make striking arts safe, and that is the main reason I want to begin training a class for free, so people (me included) can do a striking art without hurting their brain.
     
  19. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    re nippon kempo, they dont get ko because theyre not striking full power, its not a full contact art.

    so essentially you want to reinvent light/ semi contact point sparring?
     
  20. thinkingbody

    thinkingbody Valued Member

    Is that really the case? Can you point me towards a reference for that? It looks like they were going pretty hard to me. I thought the whole reason for the point system is so that it doesn't become a battle of who can stand there and punch the longest, like how some of the kali guys compete, they both just wack each other with sticks a zillion times as if it wouldn't stop someone to be hit with a stick once. I thought the point system was to stop that kind of training.
     

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