Ground fighting in the Takamatsuden

Its an 'I love lucy' thing. Maybe just me!

 

Yes in randori, the jump pull high on the hips is identical to a good jump guard if the guy isnt stiff arming you, which is why its from a shime waza not a lapel grip.

In bjj, rolling backwards is too risky, but I still do it in rolling for fun,, controling the ankles for a technical stand up, or riding it to mount are all good approaches too.

 

Just saw a video on Facebook from Brazil apparently of two guys fighting in an open area. There is a third guy standing by watching until the fight goes to the ground, at which point he pulls out a knife and proceeds to stab the shirtless guy about 20 times. Game over.

Ground fighting is an important skill to learn, but so is not getting tangled up and too focused on one opponent, getting back to your feet quickly, and not going to the ground in the first place(when possible).

 

I agree, however the problem lies if you encounter a person with some sports grappling. Sure not getting tangled up on the ground and standing back up is important. Thing is anyone with some sports grappling will have you tangled before you hit the ground. Have you in various guards and such with various arm and leg holds on you. Its going to take experience to get out that.

 

No amount of sports grappling would've helped this guy. In fact, his thinking that he could just lift the guy up and slam him on the ground is what got him in his predicament in the first place. Not sure if the video is okay to post on MAP because it is basically a murder, multiple stabs to the prone guy's front and backside(I counted about 20 because he was able to block a few). After the guy who stabbed him and the other guy who originally got taken down ran off, the guy basically just lays there on the ground until the video ends.

You go down with the guy and you lose mobility and the ability to dictate distance, the two most important things you could have when the other guy has a weapon and you do not(besides cover anyway). From a sporting perspective, he did the right thing. Got the takedown(slam in this case), and might've been alright had the encounter remained one on one. From a reality perspective, he got himself killed. He wasn't paying attention to the guy standing nearby watching, he tied up both hands grabbing the guy he was fighting and threw him down where he got his wrist slashed and then head and body stabbed.

From the start of the video to the takedown was about 20 seconds(fight was already in progress). The guy was on him in about a second after he took the other guy down and proceeded to stab him for another 20 seconds or so. Not much room for getting away.

 

TBH I was talking about the guy on the bottom and totally missed your emphasis regarding the guy doing the take down. Wow so he was completely oblivious to the others present? Jeeze that is bad, almost like a sparring mindset.. Oh crap....

Im assuming the same rules apply, if you get taken down reverse mount asap and get up fast right?

If its one thing i remember from my few months in, we didnt do very much ground stuff. im assuming the ground work comes later with actual study of the schools?

 

Having not seen the video, is it knowing how to throw which hurt him, knowing how to grapple that hurt him, making bad tactical decisions, or that fact that he was going into a situation where if he didnt take a beating a armed third man was willing to kill him.

Is there really any defence to this apart from avoiding fights in general.

 

The video can be seen in this thread and discussed there if anyone wants:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1074922928#post1074922928

 

his biggest mistake started well before the fight even went to the ground. it started when he didn't run and he kept the engagement going. probably the same thing would have happened regardless, i think it just happens that when the fight went to the ground is when the third guy pounced.

i feel like there's a misconception in your post of what constitutes "sporting". the sport part of judo and bjj (and other defense arts) are simply training methods. the dojo is not the street. the methods are there to apply fully resistant training. i would argue instead the poor guy actually needed some sport training because he didn't do the things that a sport-trained player would do: he never sought to regain his guard; and, he gave up his back. and finally, how would one ever learn to get off the ground when taken-down unless he/she learns to do it against a resistant partner?

 

I would further add that in any discipline he would have fared little better unless he was armed himself

Sport vs street is a dead argument

 

--jigoro kano

 

We don't know what led up to the fight or what happened before the footage started, but what I am talking about isn't necessarily a technical issue(although some different technical skills might've kept the fight off the ground), it is a mindset issue. A sporting mindset takes referees, fighting fair, one on one, and fighting to win as basic tenets.

That is not an indictment of resistance training(how could it be), or saying that competition is a bad thing in its own right. There is a time and place for that. However, the "sparring" mentality of give and take, winning, looking to score, get points, or get the takedown, is what I'm talking about. We all saw opportunities for him to break off the engagement and run away.

Instead, he decided to take the other guy down. At this point, things were pretty much sealed. There is not much from a technical point that could've probably helped him no matter what discipline he might have studied, as others have pointed out. So how could he have kept the encounter from going to the ground? If you train to keep yourself off the ground, escaping when there is an opportunity, and being aware of your environment, you might not demonstrate the same tendencies. Again, this is all theoretical, we can't really say.

There wasn't time to try to regain a guard once he took the other guy down. The other man was on him with the knife in a matter of seconds, while he was still grabbing the other guy on top of him. It was way too late. Which gets back to the main issue with the sporting mentality. Violent encounters aren't usually one on one matches pitting equally trained opponents against each other. We don't know if the stabber knew either fighter, if he was friends with the guy in the shirt, or if he just took the opportunity to stab the guy who took the other one down for some reason of his own.

However, thinking that he was only in a fight with the guy in the shirt, and not being aware of the nearby onlooker who didn't seem scared even though there was a fight happening in his immediate vicinity was what killed him.

Not making that argument. Just saying that only a very different mindset than that shown in the video might've made a difference.

 

Interestingly the actions of the murderer with the knife looked very practised, cutting the wrist tgat was holding the other guy, and then following up with multiple stabs whilst angling past the posts/legs of the unfortunate victim.

Is there any further context to the video?

 

Also re sports, what evidence is there they guy trained sports, I don't see any proof of this by his actions.

 

to be honest with you, i think every time you say "sporting" you continue to make the same fallacy. you keep arguing against something no one is saying and are very close to straw-manning the debate. the sport aspect of the art is the training methodology. how one handles him/her self in reality is totally separate. but the sport training is necessary.

the guy in the video has clearly never done any sporting training, in either a striking or grappling art. i would argue again that this person could've used solid high-percentage functional skills to help himself escape. did you see how when standing he completely let his guard down and his feet are not based properly? and how he was swinging wildly? how about poorly defending a very poor takedown? i've already mentioned his lack of guard or no attempt to regain guard. yes, a sport bjj-er would instantly either end up in guard or immediately seek retaining guard, thereby helping in a two-on-one situation. a wrestler or a boxer would have defended much, much better would have laid waste to the attacker much more efficiently, thereby giving that person a way out. the man clearly didn't even have situational awareness of the person in front of him. if one can't even be aware and defend against one person, how do you expect them to be aware of another or others?

great, you train in ground fighting in your art. you've mentioned you've trained in "sport" arts. do you think your current ground training is better or worse or the same as the "sport" art you trained in?

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBK23Vjv4mM[/ame]

How PR views sport arts

 

if i could just go back to this one piece.....

why do you think in judo competition an ippon is so important?

i'll tell you my thoughts. it's because winning the battle IS important. the point of competition is to try to win. the point is not to spar endlessly to a stalemate. ever wonder why at the end of a "sport" competition, someone's arm is raised?

and if one can't attack, defend or beat the person directly in front of them, how can you expect them to handle the next guy? or the next?

 

Not sure you guys are trying to understand what I am writing.:thinking:

I never said either of the two guys had any training in martial arts(or martial sports or whatever). I also mentioned that they were both poor strikers and neither one had any displayable advantage during that phase of the confrontation. The throw was a reaction to the guy in the t-shirt grabbing at the other guy to stop the flurry of punches coming his way. Not sure what the context of the fight was because the first video I saw on Facebook didn't have any details. It didn't say if the encounter was deadly or not. The youtube videos say it was deadly, but I haven't been able to verify anything. The person who was standing nearby obviously knew what he was doing, as I mentioned earlier(in this or the other thread where the video is).

My original point to Kframe that no amount of sport training would've helped him was about his mentality or mindset. Martial arts in general, and sporting arts in particular do not teach one a mentality to deal with violence(asocial violence if Fusen prefers). Fighting is social violence, much like the situation depicted in the silly video Fusen posted. Getting in people's faces, trying to get the other guy to back down and lose face, and escalation as the fight goes on. Yes, this kind of thing can be dangerous and even deadly, but that is not its purpose or method of training/thinking.

Better technical skills wouldn't have helped in this situation because he lost sight of the guy with the knife. The only way to have any potential better chance for dealing with that kind of sudden assault situation is to train in something that doesn't put you in that situation in the first place(hence the mentioning about awareness, mobility, and egress as opposed to a let's hang around and fight attitude).

I've trained in various different arts and kinds of arts. The training I got in anything I participated in isn't the issue, it is the thinking that goes along with the training and experiences I've had. Crowd control and dealing with brawls are things that I have had to do in the past, and focusing too much on one individual is a dangerous predilection to have when you don't know what you're dealing with.