E-musha shugyo

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Dunc, Apr 28, 2014.

  1. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Hi

    Great points as always and I hope you know I really appreciate you taking time to share them with us

    I'm exploring these insights to try and figure out when they apply and in some cases what you mean as you hint at higher level options

    Previously I've been aiming at the following for omote gyaku:
    - Elbow in to cover the grab
    - Then take a good grip by changing your elbow position, but keeping his hand covered as you do so
    - Lots of options like covering his forearm, releasing his grip etc

    It's worked for me, even in pressured situations, but I'm challenging this assumption based on your thoughts...

    Here's some examples of where I'm aiming at (and I know there's a lot lacking in my attempts to adopt this approach)

    https://youtu.be/tyqeW4AbpM4?t=1448

    https://youtu.be/3-_5qH8bPzA?t=1772 - Soke is 33.18 in

    Great points below - thanks

    and yes here's the video of Takamatsu-sensei
    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXz-z1OjHs4"]Ninjutsu Soke Toshitsugu Takamatsu Teaches Techniques VII - YouTube[/ame]

     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2015
  2. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    When I do omote gyaku, I think about the following:

    -elbow forward of the body always, down as much as possible to protect body
    -using leverage to pry his hand off, not strength. This is possible due to correct leverage created by elbow, chest, body angle, and footwork.
    -he doesn't have the ability to control me(push, pull, strike)
    -I can strike at any time with either hand
    -he doesn't know what I'm doing, no telegraphing



    All I can say is that if you look at Hatsumi sensei, Takamatsu sensei, or the shihan(not all and not at all times necessarily) and compare their way of doing it to say Pedro's for example(in the first video you posted for the Kobudo no Kihon he demo's it right after Hatsumi sensei), you will see a big difference. Pedro does it just like you, by opening his elbow straight out to the side. That is okay for a beginner level technique, but beyond that it is dangerous and there are better ways. The only way to really learn this is to be taught it by one of the shihan, but there is a big difference in the elbow movement, body angle, and footwork. Takamatsu sensei's video show this as well. His elbow is down and forward, not straight out and to the side. The footwork and body angle change as well, adding to the lack of necessity for opening the elbow straight out.

    As Crucio pointed out, the finger strength is also an issue, and without prolonged conditioning, one will probably never be able to match the grip strength of some of the masters. So there are tradeoffs you have to make, but there is a big difference in technique between a beginner level, and higher level. Also, the kata do the same techniques in different ways from the kiso and kihon training. It is like learning the pieces and then teaching you how they would change in real application. This study also goes in levels, so relying on videos or what was taught at a particular class in 2009 isn't really the same, nor will it probably yield an answer to this question. Next time you're in Japan, it might behoove you to ask.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2015
  3. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    So here's this week's instalment

    This time we worked on performing it from a choke (the standard form) and applying it in the situation when the choke has been put on firmly & is starting to take effect - PR I think you asked for this?

    Trying to keep the elbow from going behind the body

    Key discoveries:
    - The importance of breaking his grip is accentuated with a choke and is much harder to do. If you don't break the grip then they can relatively easily unbalance you as they go to the ground and can continue to choke or strike etc
    - I've still not found an alternative way to grip the wrist that gives anywhere near enough leverage to break uke's grip when they are resisting
    - Striking 1st in this situation (i.e. once the choke is on) is a non-starter as they can defend easily with their left elbow, shoulder etc. However, it's very difficult for uke to defend the strike during the throw as they are extended (perhaps that's the why the name was chosen?)

    https://vimeo.com/146100204

    Apologies the sound is rubbish and I'm telegraphing the strike a little too much
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2015
  4. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    I feel you're looking at one piece of the kata rather than the purpose of the kata overall. You're allowing him to put a choke on rather than thwarting his attempt to put it on. You're putting yourself in a bad situation to start and then saying you are having problems doing the kata.

    I know PR has stated that there is a way to step forward and strike. This is something he has been shown but, correct me if I'm wrong, you haven't.

    I'll confuse you even more and state that the densho reads (am going off memory and can't check until later to confirm but am somewhat confident) "pull your left foot back and twist your body... striking with your right thumb"

    This action not only pulls your neck away from his forearm (if he is choking as you are having your partner do in this video) but brings your right shoulder closer to him so you can reach him with your strike at a slightly greater distance.

    Just out of curiosity, were you shown how to/which choke to apply in this kata? The way your partner is putting on the choke in the video seems somewhat inefficient.
     
  5. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Not sure if I suggested that, but I did suggest changing the angle so you are square on to the camera, hard to see some details at the angle you film at usually. I also suggested trying this technique and others starting with your back against the wall. Benkyoka pointed out the flaws in the uke's choke but also, if you start where you are in a position where you can't move(i.e. back to the wall) in a particular direction, you will learn if you're getting away from the choke/grab properly, there will be instant feedback if you aren't. Not only are you letting the uke choke you, but he isn't really doing a real choke with intent. That is the same issue with the chest grabs. Not many people grab with a super chokehold grip on your label and then just stand there. This is another reason why you think opening your elbow isn't dangerous. So I'd suggest having them grab and push or grab and pull and also try to execute knees or kicks when they do. That may open your eyes to some extent because your uke tend to show some teacher awe and fall down pretty readily. Watching the video of Ogyaku also, the uke isn't really trying to do a judo throw, just going through the motions. It might be better if you had on a jacket, then you'd realise that the way you released the arm wouldn't really work and would set you up for a strike coming from the arm that was pulled forward towards you by your motion. More accurate uke would increase the realism in the techniques and point out what things are less likely to work.

    The technique is using the strike to break his grip and set up the throw, while catching omote gyaku. You can run from a chest grab more easily than a choke, so I'd point out that the moving back and trying to escape idea of taijutsu won't really work if they know how to choke(pulling motions won't defeat a choke). Nor will the opening up your elbow to do omote gyaku if they know what they're doing. There are many ways to do omote gyaku and different techniques show different ways of employing it. But the point of the technique isn't just to try omote gyaku, but how to move when movement is restricted. And being Koto ryu, it's strike first, ask questions later.:D
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2015
  6. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Hi both

    Thanks for these observations, they are very insightful

    On the choke - I was responding to the request to show more options (in this case the most difficult scenario where your opponent has got a good choke on)
    The choke being done at the beginning is a bit off, but uke has a very firm grip with reasonable stability. The 2nd uke is more on point with the choke that I was shown to use as the attack

     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2015
  7. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Hi

    I had problems with this when we tried it

    It worked at the moment when uke is grabbing for the lapel & therefore his left arm is committed to that movement. But aside from that moment it was easy for uke to defend

    Perhaps moving at that time is the essence of the technique so my training options outside this moment is off?
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2015
  8. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    This is interesting - Maybe the choke is different from how I understand it?

    As I understand it the choke is: Right fingers in the lapel, left hand takes lower lapel. Pushing right knuckles into the side of the neck whilst pulling with the left hand

    This tends to be a pushing choke, usually to drive your opponent back and take them down to the floor
     
  9. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Hi

    Yes I've only been shown: Extend then strike or strike and move simultaneously
    The former against a choke, the latter against a grip

    That doesn't mean much as I'm only a visitor in Japan so only access "snap shots" - I have to figure out how to take what I've been shown and make it work. I have gravitated to the process that I outlined above

    More recently I've got value from asking for help from you guys on MAP who have access to other options/ways to do things

    ......and you are a critical bunch (which makes me challenge many finer points of my movement) :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2015
  10. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Koto ryu isn't a jujutsu style though, it is a striking style. Koppo and Daken are basically using strikes to set up throws or using strikes alone to take the opponent out. Not about grappling or ground fighting. The shoden level teaches one to strike when being restricted.

    No matter what kind of choke he uses, you cannot run away from a choke(backpedal, try to move back from). That is why I suggested doing the technique with your back to the wall. If they have a good grip, moving back won't release it. How you change the angle of your torso, how you strike along their arms, how you use your footwork, these are the ways to defeat the choke. It is simple tai sabaki that works, not adding or trying to change the technique to make it more difficult. It isn't about omote gyaku, it's about striking him and using that motion to continue to throw him down, omote gyaku is just along for the ride. You have to learn how to strike when his arms are controlling your body so you can disrupt his grip with your strike, not by trying to do other things before you strike.

     
  11. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    There are lots of chokes, and variations don't change the basic idea, take his breath away, cut off his blood, off balance him for a takedown, or use the choke to lift him up are basic ideas. Whichever choke or lapel grab you use to practice from(even if he is doing a punch), the idea is the same. Don't pass out, strike, throw him down. If you are choked, how you move your feet and body will differ than if you are totally free. You will have to learn how to change your taijutsu to the situation or you will make the choke worse on yourself by moving improperly. This is one lesson Koto ryu teaches in many of it's first level techniques.
     
  12. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    You can't extend if he's choking you. Any movement you do to try to move away is wasted, he's got you in the palm of his hands. That is why you have to affect his grip and balance right away before it's lights out. That is the strike. Same with a grab. The premise of a grab in our ryu is not just a grab, it is the same if he is punching or thrusting something at you. Even when you step back from a chest grab shouldn't move the uke around, that is only acceptable for beginner level techniques. You have to learn how to off balance him without pulling or pushing him around, or else the more subtle aspects of these arts will forever remain unknown. That will also make your techniques more effective, because they will be faster and less telegraphed. Moving him and then trying to do something to him takes two steps, whereas the real techniques happen in one. It isn't easy, and it takes a lot of attention to detail, correct instruction, and a lot of practice.
     
  13. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

  14. peterc8455

    peterc8455 Valued Member

    I won't be able to add much value in terms of the kata; however if someone has superior grips on you and is setting up the choke and knows what they are doing you have to defend the immediate threat otherwise you are most likely going to sleep.
     
  15. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    In the taikai video, Hatsumi sensei demonstrates the going forward footwork I was describing. He also shows several ways of choking that affect the opponent's balance by lifting up or sinking him down like i mentioned earlier. The most interesting thing was that after Brin demonstrated the technique, Hatsumi sensei began reading out of the densho to see what the correct technique was.

    Trying to move around and do two steps before striking when someone has your body controlled with a grab or that is choking you just isn't in the realm of reality, it is make believe. So practicing real strikes(not just lunge punches where the guy freezes at the end), and real grabs(not just where the uke grabs and stands there waiting for you to kung fu them), is as important as learning the real techniques.

    However, before branching off too much in the land of henkadom, I would concentrate on the essence of Koto ryu, which again gets back to the school's philosophy of fighting and how they deal with being partially controlled but still able to strike effectively.

    Hatsumi sensei explained a lot about how the form wasn't important and that it was just to teach the essence of the movement or principles but one has to have mastered the form and understand the principles before one can just start moving freely or making things up and still have them work.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2015
  16. skuggvarg

    skuggvarg Valued Member

    I happened to Watch a minute too early on the Holland Tai Kai film... I was actually there but couldnt remember the demonstrations being so lousy...

    Anyways, I dont have that much to contribute with other than saying that on most of the version of ****o you have put up I Think you do too big movements and that you do them to circular. Like Benkyoka said, you step back and bring him down. Just bring him down straight to the ground. To much circular motion may cause Uke to move away from you and potentially escape. I was taught to go staight back and take him down very Close to me.

    Regards / Skuggvarg
     
  17. Pankeeki

    Pankeeki Valued Member

    My experience is the same as Skuggvarg. The strike happens at the same time as the step, in a straight line and there is a different way of using the thumb while doing omote gyaku that is very effective but requires good conditioning. (using boshi kansetsu)
     
  18. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Sharing a new, hopefully improved, version of ****o

    https://vimeo.com/148470322

    The arm position (elbow down) makes more sense to me now as an earlier movement to prevent the choke from engaging in the 1st place

    Trying to do the footwork without moving back much (i.e. as if there is a wall behind you) and to remove the swing from the striking arm

    Perhaps the footwork is still a little circular, and I find that I need to move left a little otherwise the strike is too easily blocked (still not happy with this part as blocking the strike is doable if your timing is off)
     
  19. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    post deleted
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015
  20. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    I still think that you are not taking the choke seriously and that is why you are talking about things like him blocking your strike etc. if your opponent has that choke on, and in this video it seems you are letting him grab you firmly, you won't have a chance to move sideways to avoid having him possibly block a strike of yours.

    Avoid being choked by avoiding being grabbed in the first place. That is much of Koto Ryu. When he gets his hands close to you twist your body and strike him in the side of his head continuing on to apply the gyaku. If he's got you in a good firm grip the twisting, sidestepping become terribly difficult.

    On a different note, after your latest video finished I saw there was a recent one for Omote Gyaku. In that you are taking a big step back and then moving your body back to take him down. This is inefficient and relies on the muscles in your front leg to move both your body weight and his away from him. Likely your one leg is not strong enough to do that. Move your body away from him at the same time as you are stepping back.
     

Share This Page