How necessary is hard/full contact for realistic training? Why?

I will add that while I am still a beginner (only been at KB for 3 full months) that if you are not used to getting hit, you flinch to much, that in itself is a huge problem vs. someone who is used to getting hit and looks for that as a counter opportunity. You want to be used to getting hit... not necessarily hard all the time, but in the nose, the forehead, etc. You cannot learn to keep your chin down and tucked and all of the defensive moves until you are getting hit and know how to respond defensively and tactically counter some shots, or just fight back. My trainer has the same mind set as me that there is no need to be macho and stand and trade and that's just stupid... however, you have to get it into your mind that you WILL get hit in a controlled environment or in a street conflict. Learning how to minimize it is an art in itself.

 

In a crisis you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of you training. If you're serious about being able to defend yourself, you need to mimic a real fight as much as you can. Only you can say where to draw the line between safety and realism.

 

My club uses very good , but very expensive instructor's armour to allow students to strike full power to vital areas - plus stress scenario training - plus medium contact against [ and amongst ] students.
If you've never been hit at least fairly hard it's going to be a nasty surprise when you do get a smack. Also, you become accustomed to fights stopping after one decent strike, which certainly doesn't happen in real life.
I don't think pulled blow training leads to pulled blows in real fights - not in my own experience.

 

Yes...we had "surprise scenarios" that some went well, some, well, lets say ended in a entire different perspective

 

reply to 'hard or soft contact' debate

Hi, 'saved in blood' , although a beginner has exactly the right answers and comments. Unfortunately there's only ONE way of getting used to and coping with getting hit --- and that's getting hit. But you DON'T need full contact - just 50/75%. Be thoughtful in your sparring; don't try to kill the other guy [ unless you've agreed otherwise ] and learn together in friendship.

 

I'm not very sure now in other schools but I remember hearing from old instructors and also reading about Kajukenbo back in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s, it was all about full contact. We still do a fair bit of full contact in our sparring as well but not as much as before. We pull blows to the head a bit to not knock somebody out, it happens but not very much.

I kind of like to view getting knocked out like over consumption of alcohol. If you're going and drinking everyday, getting absolutely wasted, well let's just say your liver didn't going to enjoy it much. Much like when you get knocked out a great deal, your brain isn't going to have much fun either. Getting wasted about once in a blue moon or something isn't going to do HEAVY permanent damage, just like getting knocked out every so often.

My personal mentality (also a pretty general Kajukenbo mentality) is that you should be able to take pain to have the right to dish it out. A person who has a devastating punch, but not much in the way of pain tolerance, I dare say will fare more poorly than somebody who has an average punch but a larger pain tolerance. Getting used to pain, making it your best friend, will also minutely get rid of that tendency for people to shy away from pain. Yes it may suck to get hit, but at least the person already knows what its like to get hit ... hard. It kind of eases people away from the mentality that "OH MY GOD IM GOING TO GET HIT ITS GOING TO HURT, NOOOO." Into more like "okay I can take that hit, maybe a couple more, let me see what I can do in that time frame"

I don't believe beginners should do full contact, of course. I do believe that it should slowly move into full contact though. Especially if it is a martial art that aims to respond to threats with a Force vs Force mentality. It works for both the one getting hit and the person hitting. The person hitting will learn how to hit as he/she progressively hits harder and harder. The one getting hit will slowly get used to it also.

It also never hurt to work those abs. They may be shy behind their friend fat, but by God if you get those to good shape, you can take a couple hits.

 

I would say after much assessment from watching boxing, MT, KB, street fights, etc that even though going for the head is one of the first instincts for many.. I wonder how much more going after the legs, knees, and body might be just as effective while not having to worry about being responsible for using a head shot that causes one to fall and hit their head and wind you up in court on manslaughter/murder charges in the case of an SD situation.

 

To add to my above post, one of the reasons I say this is that even with shinguards on, right above my knee is still sore where my instructor would kick me and it's been I guess a month or 2? A full kick with no guard? Ummm, yeah... no.

 

Not sure about the analogy.

cor blind me, lol...are you certain of that? I remember months ago when one of our more experienced boxers at our old club was K.O'd during sparring. I warn't there but my kids were - scared daffy-duck out of them. He was out for a long time and was having partial-body seizure activity whilst unconscious.

Eventually, they took him to the hospital where he was admitted and kept for at least a couple of days. A couple of months later, he returned to the club and had to quit that same evening. Even the very light session he was in was proving to be too much for him. I recall he was tough old ******* that had both the personality and the looks of a bulldog. Not given to walking away from difficult times. The vivid description of the headaches he gave (slamming your head into a brick wall over and over multiplied by an exponential function) left no doubt about how bad it could be.

We've a member here, Ero, who'd returned from active overseas combat in the Marine Corps who was K'O'd in an amateur match and has had his life turned inside out as a result of the lingering mental, emotional and physical effects of the knock-out.

I dunno...has anyone on board here had multiple ko's (received) under their belt that would like to share their experience? Does it get better with repetition? lol...

If anything, one becomes more susceptible to further concussions after the first one, not less so. I don't think the brain develops 'tolerance' to being slammed against the interior of the skull as it does to the effects of alcohol.

The bloke with the devastating punch gets my money. Especially if he can slip the jab on a regular basis.

After reading through your post, I'm thinking you might mean to say "conditioning" rather than "pain tolerance".

That would make more sense and I'd agree that the fighter with superior conditioning has an advantage over the one with one-touch ko power but little in the tank - if the former has superior footwork, movement and isn't afraid to deliver the power that he does have accurately and on a regular basis.

Though I don't think that one can train for a stout chin, per se, I do think proper conditioning can make one less susceptible to knock outs to begin with - I just don't think one becomes better at being knocked out.

My partner's are almost always covering up at that point. Covering their eyes up - I reckon the bloody-snot drippin into my mouth turns their stomachs.

Think it a good counter opportunity? lol

 

Yep. Though none as severe as the one you described (out for a long time, spasms, etc). Only out for a handful of seconds each time, but the after-effects got progressively more pronounced (more intense headaches, feeling sick for much longer, lasting sense of anxiety). Haven't been KO'd in years but I think it's got a lot to do with why I don't even want to spar light contact anymore. Soon as my partner and I touch gloves, I'm thinking "ugh, just do NOT want to be here," regardless how zippy I was before the session. Even saw it in judo recently, so quit that too. Just performance stuff for me from now on.

 

Might give BJJ a try. It's the lowest impact of all competitive martial arts I've experienced. It's also the cuddliest.

 

That's very saddening to hear about his situation. When I was writing my reply, I wasn't really taking every scenario into account, like the one you mentioned. I apologize for not clarifying what kind of KO, I meant; I meant more of getting knocked out but quickly coming to. Like maybe once a year or maybe even less. I understand some portions of the brain are way too complex to heal themselves, but there are other regions that have the ability to heal.

Apologies if I was inaccurate or confusing in my post, it wasn't my intention.

 

I subscribe to the view that a great fighter is born, not created. If you undertake semi contact - perfect the art of not getting hit. That's what I do.

There are point fighters absolutely destroying full contact guys and vice versa.

 

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Who are the point fighters "destroying" full contact fighters?

 

Among others, Shotokan guys duking it out against kyokushin and other full contact guys does not allways end up with the full contact guys dominating.

 

Who?

I think he wanted names and not vague statements.

 

I won't give out names. I like to remain anonymous here. Naming national competitors would reveal that partly. This is not a court of law.

 

If this is true I'd be willing to bet the shotokan guys are training full contact in preperation. This may not be common in shotokan but if they are going to compete full contact it is a must, even if it is only a small amount of training.

Taking a proper hit is not something you can train for without taking hits. Power delivery can be trained without full contact perhaps but you will not be able to cope with the other guys power of you haven't practised blocking/absorbing full power shots.

 

If this is actually happening in tournaments open to the public, there really shouldn't be an issue naming names. And I will concede that nothing is 100%, I am sure a point fighter somewhere somewhen beat a full contact fighter in a full contact match, I am also quite sure that it isn't a frequent occurrence.