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  #31  
Old 23-Feb-2010, 06:04 PM
eyeofstorm eyeofstorm is offline
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Where and how did you get this information? Have you personally witnessed this? I'm always interested in tracking down the origins of this kind of claim.
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  #32  
Old 23-Feb-2010, 06:08 PM
YouKnowWho YouKnowWho is offline
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I'm also very interest in this. I have tried to experience this all my life and I still don't have any luck yet. One Qi master could make a room full of people to move like zombies. He charged $450 a person. I had my check in my pocket but I did not participate that day and I just watched. Later on I offered him $10,000 if he could move me without touching. He finally decided not to accept my offer.

Last edited by YouKnowWho; 23-Feb-2010 at 06:18 PM.
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  #33  
Old 23-Feb-2010, 06:14 PM
KFSON KFSON is offline
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I do not have these abilities but have been the recipient. All you have to do is google "spiritual alchemy". This is in Daoist, Zen, Hindi, and western traditions such as Rosicrucians, O.T.O, Templars, etc.
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  #34  
Old 23-Feb-2010, 06:23 PM
YouKnowWho YouKnowWho is offline
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If someone does posses this ability,

"one's physical movements can be manipulated by someone else's mind, such as punching oneself in one's own face against one's will."

Do you think US government will pay him big money and send him to the battle field and complete missions that nobody else can do?
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  #35  
Old 23-Feb-2010, 06:26 PM
KFSON KFSON is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
If someone does posses this ability,

"one's physical movements can be manipulated by someone else's mind, such as punching oneself in one's own face against one's will."

Do you think US government will pay him big money and send him to the battle field and complete missions that nobody else can do?
I'm not really interested, but I think the U.S. government has a group of people like that.
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  #36  
Old 23-Feb-2010, 06:32 PM
YouKnowWho YouKnowWho is offline
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There is one in Taiwan too:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7mP59MhCks&feature=player_embedded"]Ba Gua Zhang 八卦掌---圓明**柔身八卦掌*朝烜老師教* 動側錄四 - YouTube[/ame]

http://wushu.net.tw/bbs/viewthread.p...=page=1&page=1
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  #37  
Old 23-Feb-2010, 06:36 PM
KFSON KFSON is offline
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Now, think about facing your opponent at 20 feet and he puts an electric shock in your brain that sends you to the floor.
It hurts.

Last edited by KFSON; 23-Feb-2010 at 07:28 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #38  
Old 24-Feb-2010, 02:44 AM
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ANGELSGYMSINGH ANGELSGYMSINGH is offline
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Eye of Storm... I know you are upset with the mystical comment of our brother here but we both know some things spoken in an unfamiliar context or environment may seem inappropriate. Let me present to you a film:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmHam7Fpyak"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmHam7Fpyak[/ame]

This man made a comment that makes me believe he is very conversant and familiar with such presentations of skill and the scientific understanding of it:

"Neither faking nor telekinesis. Action at 2:00 Ma set up oscillations that upset balance. Search for: Manipulation of forward estimation of movement state, by Grant Mulliken. Opponents apply force and Ma leads them into emptiness. 2) Use deep fascia instead of muscle. Standing meditation (stress) converts fibroblasts to myofibroblasts used in the subtle, rapid, muscle-like expansion/ contraction we call chi. His art is the result of years of philosophical research and training. Not magic!"

What Grandmaster Ma is showing is far from what our brother is talking about but what the master presents to us is an accomplishable goal that to most seems impossible but to those who are tirelessly practicing... a realistic goal. And if this then what else is possible?

GM&Dr. Stier, who mentors me in TCM, gave me great encouragement after seeing and correcting some of my training regimines to meet my intended goals of inner cultivation and outer demonstration of MA training. He said to me, "you have all that you need, but.... don't make it happen, let it happen". Such a comment 10 years ago would have had me respond emotionally, OK Buddha what in the heck does that mean. But now after demonstrating some rather unusual and unexpected manifestations in front of my students but not being able to control these phenomena or at-will (continuously) demonstrate them the comment has some value to me.

KFSON and Eyeofstorm we all practice arts that require a conquest of fear and the courage to endure loss and pain to accomplish what is to many people unusual feats of mental, phyisical and spiritual noteworthyness. This is because we are serious practitioners who are willing to do what is impossible to some to achieve it....

Eyeofstorm you are obviously a practical, hardworking MA practitioner who knows what it took to be as proficient in your art as you currently are. I have come to humbly believe that faith in my Art aint got nothing to do with believing in anything. It comes from knowing that the process to achieve what I have faith in will get me there. In the example presented in the film I know what is possible and that my training is a process that will equal or surpass that ability if I keep the faith. It is in this vein that I can understand your disbelief because such a possibility is not the goal of your training path, even as that path is very effective towards the goals you have set with it. Perhaps KFSON's training path is set towards the goals he has witnessed, even as this path is most likely just as effective. I think a Martial Artist is only limited by his/her imagination and perserverance... Both of you brothers are serious MA practitioners to me because I have learned form both....

Thanks to you both for the posts Warriors... G

Last edited by ANGELSGYMSINGH; 24-Feb-2010 at 02:49 AM. Reason: spelling, being more articulate
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  #39  
Old 24-Feb-2010, 03:29 AM
WhitePanda WhitePanda is offline
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Quote:
In the example presented in the film I know what is possible and that my training is a process that will equal or surpass that ability if I keep the faith. It is in this vein that I can understand your disbelief because such a possibility is not the goal of your training path, even as that path is very effective towards the goals you have set with it.
Faith has nothing to do with it. If you shoot someone, it doesn't matter what their believes are, the mass, speed, tradjectory and shape of the bullet can create a greater force than what the victems skull can withstand despite their beliefs.

You can work on your "chi" all you want, that doesn't make it any more real. If I told you that eating the souls of invisible hedge hogs was an effective way of building inner strength, you'd have about the same amount of proof.

If your ability really relies on faith, than I suggest you find some new abilities.
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  #40  
Old 24-Feb-2010, 04:02 AM
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ANGELSGYMSINGH ANGELSGYMSINGH is offline
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White Panda,
Nice to meet ya bro. I am sure you are not following the point of my post. However, I do get the point of yours: If you can't see it, feel it or do it then it doesn't exist. I never said present ability relies on faith bro. I say that faith is based on a personal experience which instills a knowledge or wisdom concerning ones training path and in ones self to perservere in order to reach an imagined and desired goal.

The fact is, is that I don't know you and have not seen what you can do or how you train, but if I had observed and learned all these things about you... and found you a viable source to learn from... and my training path was to build inner strength beyond what I already have and at that time did not have a training reginmine to endure to reach my goal... and you presented the eating of the souls of hedge hogs and then presented an experience that convinced me that this was a viable method... well... I am not sure I would follow that training regimine but I would have to say you definitely had a method to achieve my goal... as nasty as that method might appear to be... lol..

Point is... to me Faith is based on experience or in other words "Knowledge", personal or otherwise, and as such even though I have goals that I have not achieved in MA... I know that they will be achieved because I have Faith in the training process I am pursuing... For right now I have already reached an ability that a year ago would have been impossible... To look beyond the slighted attack you just posted and see a benevolent blogger who I can learn from no matter the provacative nature of the source... Hope this post finds you well.... G

Last edited by ANGELSGYMSINGH; 24-Feb-2010 at 04:10 AM. Reason: articulating better
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  #41  
Old 24-Feb-2010, 01:44 PM
KFSON KFSON is offline
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B. K. Frantzis wrote about a similar teaching he had in China. I think his teacher's name was Liu Huang Chieh.

B. K. Frantzis


page 241-247 I think:


p.s.
I don't know Mr. Frantzis. I only know about him through this book.
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  #42  
Old 24-Feb-2010, 05:32 PM
eyeofstorm eyeofstorm is offline
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I practice and teach bagua zhang and the video link from youknowwho is of a technique I seen countless times and also done myself. I also know its limitations. It is relatively easy to connect to certain people's energy field and push or pull them without touching. However, it only works on people who's energy field is in tune with your own (about 1 in 10) in my experience and your energy field must be in contact with theirs - it can't be done from a great distance - the most I have seen is about 15 feet away but usually its just a few inches as was shown on that youtube clip. Also the practitioner has to make that energy contact with the other person (atune their own field to the others) which takes a second or two (less with a LOT of practice) but that connection can't be done fast enough to deflect a fast punch. Anyway what would be the point? We have arms to deflect strikes with.

The taichi push hands video was also good and the controversial part at 2.00 is possibly a variation of the the same although I haven't seen it applied that way before. However, the master had plenty of time to make a good energy contact with his partner which made it possible.

These demonstrations are great for showing that a certain skill level exists but that kind of ability is far more suited to healing than to combat. Atuning your energy with that of a sick or injured person can aid enormously in bringing them back to physical and emotional balance. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that taiqi is no good for combat, it can be devastating but that particular skill has limited use in actual fighting.
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  #43  
Old 25-Feb-2010, 01:05 AM
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ANGELSGYMSINGH ANGELSGYMSINGH is offline
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Limited Use

Eyeofstorm,
I agree with you in the aspect that there are so few people that can replicate this ability there may be of no value to the average practitioner... because quite frankly few can consistantly and invariably apply the skill.

But there is a scientific explaination for the ability for those willing to practice long and hard enough and research and study tirelessly as the Master you witnessed. I was told where to find the info and it does check out even though I had to put on my graduate cap to undertand it:

"Neural variability in premotor cortex provides a signature of motor preparation Mark M Churchland1, Byron M. Yu2, Stephen I. Ryu3, Gopal Santhanam2, Afsheen Afshar3, Krishna V. Shenoy1 1 Neurosciences Program and Dept. of Electrical Engineering, Stanford University 2 Dept. of Electrical Engineering, Stanford University 3 School of Medicine and Dept. of Electrical Engineering, Stanford University

How does the brain generate rapid and accurate movements of the body? Much work has focused on the role of sensory feedback and internal models in optimizing control signals during movement. Here we explore the possibility that the optimization of control signals begins during motor preparation, before movement begins. This hypothesis implies that a movement is in large part the product of a motor ‘program’ latent in the preparatory activity. If so, it would seem critical that the brain optimize preparatory activity, so as to get the desired result when the movement is triggered. Given the presumably non-linear mapping from preparatory activity to movement (and thence to likelihood of reward) one suspects that this optimization is reasonably difficult, and might consume considerable time. Our interpretation is that when motor preparation is disrupted just before it is to be translated into movement, execution is delayed until preparatory activity can be re-optimized.

This scientific explaination describes the application of Hua Chin or Attraction into Emptiness but at a very sophisticated and cultivated level; moreover, the explaination coupled with alot of research of the ancient treatise and alot of form and pushhands training makes this level of skill accomplishable and very desirable to achieve: The expectation of presence is continuously changed so fast through oscillation right at the time the opponent wishes to make contact that they are having their mind-computer overload presenting body and brain lock. The process seems to be validated not through the science alone but the application of that scientific expalination to what we all as MA practitioners know is possible and as such can aspire to achieve.

By the way this kind of application can be applied to a striker within his striking range. We all know that pugilistic striking can be illusively used by the adept who integrates Western Boxing with Tai Chi, Bagua, or Wing Chun to significantly weaken the opponents structure. This is done by warding off, slipping, bob & weaving, ducking, rollback, pivoting skills are applied to the 5 Character Secret are superior enough to the opponent's offense we can make that opponent fall over and bust himself up without laying a hand on them other than the "four ounce deflecting 1000 lbs" technique. I believe this is the "moving magic" that requires Sung, Substantial and Insubstantial weighting during transitioning postures, or as John says "Dynamic root" that can create the illusion of presence that attracts the aggresive opponent into emptiness. The opponent will seem to punch at nothing and fall or hit themselves in the effort.

Anyway this has been a very good thread guys and thanks...

Last edited by ANGELSGYMSINGH; 25-Feb-2010 at 01:18 AM. Reason: articulation
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  #44  
Old 25-Feb-2010, 10:58 PM
WhitePanda WhitePanda is offline
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You're "explanation" only explains how energy is distributed with in one human body, It does not give any explanation as to how one might put energy into another person without connecting nerves.
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  #45  
Old 26-Feb-2010, 03:07 AM
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ANGELSGYMSINGH ANGELSGYMSINGH is offline
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To Brother Panda

Yes it does bro' but you may have to re-read Master Feng, Wang and I lu-yueng's treaties. My post assumes that reader is very familiar with them and also has at least decades of experience in the Internal Martial Arts regarding research, reflection form and sparring training in the 10s of thosands hours, as I am sure your have. And agian for me this is only a requirement to at least understand what I saw Master Ma Ya Liuang accomplish in his Push Hand performance. But lets take a quick review of some treatise that might help us understand our ability to accomplish what the master demonstrated. I think your question concerns, as a beginning, adhering with regard to entering anothers nerveous system interpreting energy as a means to establishing a plan to do so (A review of the natures of the 5 Steps will help alot because if you know the nature of a thing you know what it is and is not capable of doing and the nerveous system is the main progenetor of movement. go to http://www.jadedragon.com/articles/illusive.html):

T'ai Chi Cbuan Ching
Attributed to Immortal Wang Chung-yueh

Tai Chi is born of Wu Chi, the mother of yin and yang.
In motion they separate; in tranquility they unite.
Without excess and without insufficiency, be bent when following, contract when reaching out. If the opponent is hard, I am soft; this is called "receiving". If I go with the opponent and cause him to be defective, this is called "adhering". Respond quickly to quick movements, respond slowly to slow movements. Even though the changes are of all kinds, the principle remains one in the same. Through self-mastery you will gradually apprehend "interpreting energy .
From "interpreting energy" you will reach a state of shen, Ming (spiritual illumination).
But without a long period of arduous practice, you will be unable to suddenly possess a clear understanding.


Then Master Wang states more that can help us, warn us and also tell us how fortunate we are to even know the boundlessness of the Supreme Ultimate Fist...

The mutual coordination of yin and yang is comparable to "interpreting energy
After you acquire "interpreting energy", the more you practice, the
more skill you will obtain, and through silent remembering and
thorough examination, you will gradually arrive at the state of being
able to follow your own mind.


Man this part is important as it pertains to the first Character Secret of how to have and why to have a calm mind... Such a state is acknowledged when what one does in form is consciously done in fighting no matter what the style. The next part is a confimation of faith based on experience and as such bestowing a knowledge to the Adept concerning the assurance that his/her knowledge of self (Form work) and knowledge of others (Pushhands or sparring) will enable them to reach their goal.

The fundamental here is to forget the self and follow others.
Most make the error of rejecting the near for what is distant.
This is called, "the slightest divergence leads you far astray".
Students must thoroughly distinguish between these aspects.
Every word of this treatise is important.
There is not one extra word or reference.
Without natural intelligence you cannot apprehend these words.


That last part tells me many thing but in the context of this post I remember Fengs poem about the relationship between breathing out and in and touching and standing on the root of heaven (Dragon/Change/Water) and earth (Tiger/Tenacity/claws). Feng gives us this to place ourselves in the now at all times but this is not possible unless on has faith that the training will get them to their goal without thinking about that goal.... just the moment of the training event. The last part is a warning and a message of fortune to those of us who have such goals.


The early masters were unwilling to propagate false teachings and did
not trust just anyone. They were apprehensive about transmitting their kung-fu skills to others without good reason.


Brother Panda, if we do the work the energy connection question is solved for us. After eading this and the scientific explaination I posted please relook at the Masters performance. I think you will find something astonishing as I did the same thing to reach the same conclusion finally..... yeasterday... lol. As Master Wang suggests in his statement about error, we only have to set the goal, use the strategies or postures presented in treatise and stay on the path.... I hope this helps but if not it will always be knowledge you get to when you are ready..... G

Last edited by ANGELSGYMSINGH; 26-Feb-2010 at 03:20 AM. Reason: articulation
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