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  #31  
Old 29-Sep-2009, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by General_Tso View Post
Just a little thought that poped into my head about all of this.
- 1000 years ago, people (in general) were more concerned with survival. Putting food on the table, avoiding being mugged or killed whenever they left their homes, providing for their families, and pleasing their gods.

In todays world, it all boils down to $$. You can buy off the justice systems, you can buy off governments, and you can buy off your gods. Unfortunately, we live in a world that revolves around money, not family, ethics and values.

That being said, whether or not the current monks are real or false, they need money to survive more so than the monks of yesterday did. Everything is commercial, and everyone is in business to turn a dollar. It's sad, but mostly true.

Just my 2 cents.
Buddhist monks have been surviving without earning $$$ for centuries. You seem to not understand that Shaolin monks are supposed to be Buddhist. I guess you do not have a clear understanding of what Buddhism is about.
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  #32  
Old 29-Sep-2009, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by 19thlohan View Post
Cheap display katanas are still katanas but an actor pretending to be a monk is not a monk. It really is that clear cut. You're either a monk or you're not and the people at the Shaolin tourist attraction are not.

Then a cheap Katana cannot be a genuine or authentic one. How can it be so, if it hasnt been made the way it had first been originated? How is it we can accept something for what it is from a mere replication? I guess, anyone can put on a orange robe with skills in Wu Shu and call themselves a Shaolin Monk? Is there not criteria, on what a Shaolin Moonk should be? Are we to not examine what the temple was originally built for and/or examine Buddhism, to have some sort of criteria? Can we not blindly follow something without a thorough examination of logical deduction from mere acceptance of veneration and/or apotheosizing?

Last edited by 47MartialMan; 29-Sep-2009 at 06:29 AM.
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  #33  
Old 29-Sep-2009, 05:32 PM
Bruce W Sims Bruce W Sims is offline
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This may be a good time to enjoy a "Reality Sandwich", so as to keep in touch with the way things ARE rather than the way things might be imagined.

As a Buddhist I do not shave my head.....probably because my gray is falling out faster than I can cut it. However, I do my best to observe dietary laws, meditate, read the Sutras and so forth. The Eight Fold Path is a living dynamic for me and the Four Noble Truthes are pillars for my belief system. However, I still own a car and a home, enjoy married life and am active in my community. The reason I disclose all of this is that I think it would be good for people to examine the actual nature of Buddhist communities, both historically and currently.

As with any religious community, Christian, Jewish, Islamic or what-have-you, the rules may be widely known and regarded, but the degree to which they are respected and followed is a very individual choice. In the cases of the MAHAYANA traditions of China, Korea and Japan, the owning of slaves, collection of rents and revenues, accrual of lands and offices were very well-known to the Buddhist communities. Conflicts between competitive temples for the accrual of power and territory were actually quite common as was the study of fighting techniques to keep villages and residents in line.

I keep thinking that people imagine that all Buddhists, temples, SANGHA-s and monks spend all of their time with one foot on Earth and the rest of the body swaying towards the Cosmos. Its just not so. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce
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  #34  
Old 29-Sep-2009, 05:42 PM
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Yes. the reality of the sandwich is that Buddhist do own things. They do make a living. They do a lot of things. But DO they put these things BEFORE their practice? The issue is not should a monk earn a wage, the issue is does he practice Buddhism, the Ch'en way as what the temple IS for BEFORE marketing himself as a martial artist.
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  #35  
Old 02-Oct-2009, 08:51 PM
reedk reedk is offline
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Travel to China and see for yourself and you will believe.

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http://www.hawaiiufc.com
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  #36  
Old 09-Mar-2011, 09:28 PM
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Trqveling or seeing is not believing. As said, anyone can adorn a monk's robe. the study of Shaolin was Chen/Chan (Japanese-Zen)

If a Shaolin Monk nowadays practcies martial arts and not Chen, then they are not what they display.
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  #37  
Old 09-Mar-2011, 09:49 PM
Bruce W Sims Bruce W Sims is offline
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Originally Posted by 47MartialMan View Post
Trqveling or seeing is not believing. As said, anyone can adorn a monk's robe. the study of Shaolin was Chen/Chan (Japanese-Zen)

If a Shaolin Monk nowadays practcies martial arts and not Chen, then they are not what they display.
Yeah.... its hard to know where to come down on this issue. I remember seeing a vast number of Mercedes auto-s at some of the temples I passed in Korea. But.....the question is were these cars belonging to the monks, or were they furnished to the temple by observant Buddhists as their way of supporting the community.

As I have said many times, I have no window into another person's heart and I figure thats really where this dialogue takes place, yes?

During a visit to Vancouver, BC, a member of the Shaolin Demo troop owned that he was not actually a monk but an individual hired "to play a part", as it were. In his heart, however, his desire to come out of the best part of himself may have been more passionate than many of those in the audience or some of his co-workers, right?

Honestly, I am very content with the research of Stanley Hennings concerning the Shaolin Temple and its branches. I also know that for a significant portion of the MA community, no matter how much factual material a person dredges-up, they will want to believe in some romantic, media-shaped image rather than the reality. The fantasy is ALWAYS more fun than the reality. A lot of people pay good money to go to MA schools to have their fantasies indulged. Who am I to rain on their parade, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce
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  #38  
Old 10-Mar-2011, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Bruce W Sims View Post
Yeah.... its hard to know where to come down on this issue. I remember seeing a vast number of Mercedes auto-s at some of the temples I passed in Korea. But.....the question is were these cars belonging to the monks, or were they furnished to the temple by observant Buddhists as their way of supporting the community.

As I have said many times, I have no window into another person's heart and I figure thats really where this dialogue takes place, yes?

During a visit to Vancouver, BC, a member of the Shaolin Demo troop owned that he was not actually a monk but an individual hired "to play a part", as it were. In his heart, however, his desire to come out of the best part of himself may have been more passionate than many of those in the audience or some of his co-workers, right?

Honestly, I am very content with the research of Stanley Hennings concerning the Shaolin Temple and its branches. I also know that for a significant portion of the MA community, no matter how much factual material a person dredges-up, they will want to believe in some romantic, media-shaped image rather than the reality. The fantasy is ALWAYS more fun than the reality. A lot of people pay good money to go to MA schools to have their fantasies indulged. Who am I to rain on their parade, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce
Fantasies can cause delusions

I, for one, do not have a issue with anyone "Playing Shaolin Monk". However the deception can be confusing and worse, misleading. This would be like someone "playing" Aikido, Jeet Kune Do, (add whatever)___________ , Black Belt Teachers/Practitioners.

The PRC have it so they can capitalise on this as a tourist attraction.

As long as people know it is a attraction and not the authentic deal.

As I had stated per analogy;
Authentic Katanas or Replicas, as long as the "replicas" are not passed as the genuine item.

http://www.superiormartialarts.com/c...&affiliate=889
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  #39  
Old 10-Mar-2011, 01:00 AM
Bruce W Sims Bruce W Sims is offline
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And therein lies the core issue with the entire MA industry; regardless of where and how one grabs it.

a.) You nailed the first bit: the "owner" of the tradition gets all sorts of slack. Chinese can milk the Shaolin Temple. Koreans can knock people off of horses with TKD. Japanese can celebrate traditions which go back 500 years and have remained unchanging.

b.) People don't care if their fantasies are delusional as long as they don't have to be reminded of it. People would rather believe in an unbroken chain of custody for a given art lasting 2000 years, than face the possibility that some fella made something up during a time of chaos and then lied about its bonafides.

c.) One must be very careful about threatening people's fantasy materials. People can be very protective about how they see the world coming together. Doesn't matter how accurate and truthful a person is. Uniformly, a person's longevity is considerably shorter while burning at the stake or dangling on a rope.

Best Wishes,

Bruce
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  #40  
Old 10-Mar-2011, 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Bruce W Sims View Post
And therein lies the core issue with the entire MA industry; regardless of where and how one grabs it.

a.) You nailed the first bit: the "owner" of the tradition gets all sorts of slack. Chinese can milk the Shaolin Temple. Koreans can knock people off of horses with TKD. Japanese can celebrate traditions which go back 500 years and have remained unchanging.

b.) People don't care if their fantasies are delusional as long as they don't have to be reminded of it. People would rather believe in an unbroken chain of custody for a given art lasting 2000 years, than face the possibility that some fella made something up during a time of chaos and then lied about its bonafides.

c.) One must be very careful about threatening people's fantasy materials. People can be very protective about how they see the world coming together. Doesn't matter how accurate and truthful a person is. Uniformly, a person's longevity is considerably shorter while burning at the stake or dangling on a rope.

Best Wishes,

Bruce
Agreed.

I remember when my brother was "into" Star Trek.
He drove me crazy with that stuff all over the room (Which we had to share)
And he was up there in the ages.
Anytime I spoke "ill will" about it, he got on the offensive (or defensive pending how you look at it).

As detailed your post about this is, leads me to paraphrase;

"Ignorance Is Bliss"

To which I always add;
"the world is full of a lot of "Happy People" out there"
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  #41  
Old 14-Mar-2011, 11:51 AM
Bruce W Sims Bruce W Sims is offline
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Even in the opening post by the TS....there are one helluva lot of inaccuracies. For instance, there is a body of information that reveals that the Han people were using h2h material long before the 5th Century CE when the Shaolin Temple was built. And the monks at the temple did not have to "discover" Buddhism since they were practitioners of the Contemplative form of that belief which would evolve into modern day CHAN Buddhism. And the idea of a military or martial tradition being handed-down through the complex of temples across China does not take into account the reported destruction of the temples or those periods when the practices of the monks devolved into nothing.

But now we are back to discussing facts over fantasies, and its pretty apparent that most folks find this distasteful. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce
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  #42  
Old 14-Mar-2011, 04:49 PM
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47MartialMan 47MartialMan is offline
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There are better accounts of Bodhi man. Instead of him "actually" teaching "kung fu", he know is accrerdited for teaching a form of yogs exercises. Which, now some believe, were the foundations of Shaolin martial arts. On the other hand, there are a scant few scholars who simply state that the monks at Shaolin allowed or gave sanctuary to rebels and those rebels became monks, thus they were teaching martial arts inside the temple.

China does not desire to rain on the parade of one of its icons
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  #43  
Old 07-Jun-2011, 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted by 47MartialMan View Post
I do not wholeheartenly believe there exists authentic Shaolin Monks nowadays
"Authentic" Shaolin Monks are there, they just aren't part of the tourist attraction available to visitors.
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  #44  
Old 07-Jun-2011, 03:07 AM
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"Authentic" Shaolin Monks are there, they just aren't part of the tourist attraction available to visitors.
Doubt it.

Shaolin itself is not/no longer used for actual Buddhist practices
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....... for what its worth is to keep it real, martial arts are not always about fighting at all, even when your sparring. Sometimes its just about fitness and learning some technique. .
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  #45  
Old 07-Jun-2011, 03:46 AM
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Originally Posted by 47MartialMan View Post
Doubt it.

Shaolin itself is not/no longer used for actual Buddhist practices
That's one of the beauties of Martial Arts: you express it yourway(believe what you will) & I express it mine, my friend.
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