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  #16  
Old 28-Feb-2009, 02:46 AM
Brad66 Brad66 is offline
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Your right. sorry. When it comes to Buddhism you have a good point.

Last edited by Brad66; 28-Feb-2009 at 02:49 AM.
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  #17  
Old 28-Feb-2009, 04:37 AM
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47MartialMan 47MartialMan is offline
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I am not trying to "rain on anyone's parade". But it is what it is. (Hmmn, good analogy - a parade)
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  #18  
Old 03-Mar-2009, 08:02 PM
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Just to clarify for you guys re the dragon urn, at one point a few hundred years back China controlled Tibet just as they do now and appointed their own process to select a new Dalai Lama (not just a random senior lama). They are planning on using the exact same method when the current Dalai Lama passes, which as all Tibetans have said, will be meaningless because it will simply be the governments way of further destroying what is left of Tibetan religion and culture.
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  #19  
Old 04-Mar-2009, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by benkei View Post
Just to clarify for you guys re the dragon urn, at one point a few hundred years back China controlled Tibet just as they do now and appointed their own process to select a new Dalai Lama (not just a random senior lama). They are planning on using the exact same method when the current Dalai Lama passes, which as all Tibetans have said, will be meaningless because it will simply be the governments way of further destroying what is left of Tibetan religion and culture.

And this has what bearing upon Shaolin?
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  #20  
Old 01-Jun-2009, 05:57 AM
tifire tifire is offline
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Originally Posted by 19thlohan View Post
The bigger problem is that most of them , possibly all of them, are not even monks. They are college students that are paid to shave their heads and work for a tourist attraction.
Also the history of Shaolin given above is fiction.
They are monks, just not "real" monks. I say not "real" because Shaolin monks including the abbot (or the head) are more commercial than they should be. There are hundreds of martial arts schools near Shaolin Template claiming they can teach authentic Shaolin Kunfu. The abbot of Shaolin is more interested in "selling" Shaolin heritage including Shaolin Kung Fu. They tour around the world. They collect money from tourists and pilgrims.
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  #21  
Old 01-Jun-2009, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by tifire View Post
They are monks, just not "real" monks. I say not "real" because Shaolin monks including the abbot (or the head) are more commercial than they should be. There are hundreds of martial arts schools near Shaolin Template claiming they can teach authentic Shaolin Kunfu. The abbot of Shaolin is more interested in "selling" Shaolin heritage including Shaolin Kung Fu. They tour around the world. They collect money from tourists and pilgrims.
To quote a good friend:

They are talented acrobatics. They are talented Wu Shu. They ought to just say this is what they do. Ooops, that's right, they can't, no money unless using the name. Would you go to a person who is talented but claims something beyond what they are? Would you go to a person who is talented, but does not have any intrique? Where is the morals and honor?

Shaolin monks/impersonators do cause interest. With such huge interest, there is the entourage of charletains. They, themselves are charletains.

What you have are athletes no different than soccer, baseball, football, kids training in youth, in order to make a little money. Moreso, than what they ever can without.

They all want to get some sort of success in life. There's nothing wrong with that. But, to use the name of Shaolin and have others believe in the hype is exploitation.

How come they can't come forth on their own without such association?

We could think of them as poor kids in hard labor shoe factories or Disney employees.


Now, where this is fine and admirable that they can receive compensation, the explotation is terrible.

There is no intergity in exploitation with imposition.
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  #22  
Old 01-Jun-2009, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by 47MartialMan View Post
You seem to be missing the point. A Buddhist Monk, which Shaolin was built for, people practiced, is not supposed to be disposed with marketing and personal gains. The thing is these people are capitalizing on something that wasnt for intentions of being.

I have no ill feelings about someone marketing themselves. But I had studied Buddhism, and these monks are a charletain disgrace.

Decades ago, I fell for the Shaolin Monk thing. A friend turned me onto this,

http://www.spiritualminds.com/articl...articleid=1886

http://www.spiritualminds.com/articl...articleid=1833


And I went from there. I went as far as to even study Buddhism. (Against immediate family wishes)

Knowledge of martial arts, should not be observed from a first hand observation, but more in depth.

One of my instructors always has stated:

"Don't take my word for it, research for yourself"

Mmmm.... like many things, it's not really as clear cut as this. Well, at least, according to my intelligences it isn't. The coaxh I trained with came from very near Shaolin Temple, and trained there as a child. He was also offered a position, years later, as a superb contemporary wushu practitioner, pretending to be a monk on a US 'Shaolin Monk' tour.

He told me that there are many people who train near by, many lay monks, many people who pretend to be monks, but also some 'special' monks who genuinely are Buddhist, kung fu monks, but who live away from the tourist parts of the temple. By definition, these aren't seen as often as the ones who are there to entertain tourists.

I myself have trained - just for a short time - with a couple of Shaolin monks - and they were exceptionally skilled by professional kung fu standards.

Like many things, there are often grey areas.
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  #23  
Old 01-Jun-2009, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by tifire View Post
They are monks, just not "real" monks. .
Not monks, not "real" monks, I can't say I'm getting your distinction but I can say that none of the people promoting the Shaolin tourist attraction are buddhist monks.
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  #24  
Old 01-Jun-2009, 11:48 AM
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THEY ARE MONKS, NOT REAL MONKS

(There are none-sharpen cheap display Katanas, not real Katanas)


Mmmm.... like many things, it's not really as clear cut as this. Well, at least, according to my intelligences it isn't. The coaxh I trained with came from very near Shaolin Temple, and trained there as a child. He was also offered a position, years later, as a superb contemporary wushu practitioner, pretending to be a monk on a US 'Shaolin Monk' tour.

This is the whole point. Pretending to be a monk toride upon the name is false advertising or false representation.

Don't get me wrong, I stated that they are excellant WuShu martial artists, they are not Shaolin Monks
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  #25  
Old 01-Jun-2009, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 47MartialMan View Post
THEY ARE MONKS, NOT REAL MONKS

(There are none-sharpen cheap display Katanas, not real Katanas)


Mmmm.... like many things, it's not really as clear cut as this. Well, at least, according to my intelligences it isn't. The coaxh I trained with came from very near Shaolin Temple, and trained there as a child. He was also offered a position, years later, as a superb contemporary wushu practitioner, pretending to be a monk on a US 'Shaolin Monk' tour.

This is the whole point. Pretending to be a monk toride upon the name is false advertising or false representation.

Don't get me wrong, I stated that they are excellant WuShu martial artists, they are not Shaolin Monks
Well, according to my teacher, who lived not too far away, trained there, and knew many of the people there, some are genuine monks - some of the monks who are there, at the temple I mean. As for the travelling monks - most certainly aren't. I should make it completely clear that my coach declined the offer of pretending to be a monk.
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  #26  
Old 01-Jun-2009, 02:23 PM
Bruce W Sims Bruce W Sims is offline
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I don't know if this will help or hurt the conversation---just a thought.

Prior to the Chinese Revolution and the overthrow of the Qing Dynasty, the Roman Catholic Church had a pretty well established organization in China. Various administrations and changes in China caused the Church to continue as a national institution which is not recognized by the Roman Catholic Church of Italy. There have been on-going discussions between the two organizations with an eye towards validating baptisms, marriages, ordinations etc etc but the two groups essentially remain parallel groups sharing the same name.

I share this tidbit only to say that the stability of a given institution over as long as 1500 years is commonly fraught with ups and downs and ins and outs. Christianity and Buddhism are both fine examples of belief systems that have gone through their share of changes. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce
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  #27  
Old 09-Jun-2009, 03:15 AM
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Just a little thought that poped into my head about all of this.
- 1000 years ago, people (in general) were more concerned with survival. Putting food on the table, avoiding being mugged or killed whenever they left their homes, providing for their families, and pleasing their gods.

In todays world, it all boils down to $$. You can buy off the justice systems, you can buy off governments, and you can buy off your gods. Unfortunately, we live in a world that revolves around money, not family, ethics and values.

That being said, whether or not the current monks are real or false, they need money to survive more so than the monks of yesterday did. Everything is commercial, and everyone is in business to turn a dollar. It's sad, but mostly true.

Just my 2 cents.
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  #28  
Old 09-Jun-2009, 07:27 AM
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Seems to me, most times we look at, religion = business, whether it be ancient Greek temples making money from pilgrims, or the Shaolin Temple.
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  #29  
Old 09-Jun-2009, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by 47MartialMan View Post
THEY ARE MONKS, NOT REAL MONKS

(There are none-sharpen cheap display Katanas, not real Katanas)


[I]Mmmm.... like many things, it's not really as clear cut as this.

Cheap display katanas are still katanas but an actor pretending to be a monk is not a monk. It really is that clear cut. You're either a monk or you're not and the people at the Shaolin tourist attraction are not.
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  #30  
Old 09-Jun-2009, 01:56 PM
Bruce W Sims Bruce W Sims is offline
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Originally Posted by General_Tso View Post
Just a little thought that poped into my head about all of this.
- 1000 years ago, people (in general) were more concerned with survival. Putting food on the table, avoiding being mugged or killed whenever they left their homes, providing for their families, and pleasing their gods.

In todays world, it all boils down to $$. You can buy off the justice systems, you can buy off governments, and you can buy off your gods. Unfortunately, we live in a world that revolves around money, not family, ethics and values.

That being said, whether or not the current monks are real or false, they need money to survive more so than the monks of yesterday did. Everything is commercial, and everyone is in business to turn a dollar. It's sad, but mostly true.

Just my 2 cents.
While I agree that money is important, I also know that the degree to which money dictates our behaviors is a choice. For instance, the bankers who created the terrible economic conditions we have now had a choice whether to break their own policies and procedures. Salesmen have a choice whether to tell the truth about a product or lie to get the sale. Even the monks under discussion have a choice as to whether they want a job in which they misrepresent themselves or not. As far as I can see there would be nothing stopping a person hired to PLAY a monk, from under-going proper studies and actually becoming an authentic monk by his own choice, yes?

How many of us here have heard people report that they would study MA, continue to study MA or had to stop studying MA and give some rationale? Yet these same people are capable of ditching work for a season-opening game, lying to their spouses for a night out, dodging time with their kids or cheating on their taxes. Its a matter of priorities and the choices we make about those priorities. IMHO.

Best Wishes,

Bruce
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