Keeping secrets

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Dunc, Apr 17, 2014.

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  1. Kave

    Kave Lunatic

    Kacem is good, but he definitely has a certain amount of bias. I tend to think of Kacem as a good source for understanding the Bujinkan viewpoint on certain claims, but I wouldn't say he takes a particularly critical perspective. Looking to Kacem for a critical review of the Bujinkan would be like looking to C.S Lewis for a critical review of Christianity.
     
  2. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    You do realize that your post below totally discredits you as someone who has done research right?:dunno:

    I have been living and training in Japan under one of Hatsumi Sensei's original students and will not be going to my rank, although I will say that I have passed the godan test. In addition, I speak and read Japanese so I do have a pretty good idea of what is generally believed about historical ninjutsu in pop culture and also what modern researchers have written. Sorry to burst your nuke plans bubble, but you basically rehashed different theories and beliefs but haven't really said anything new or insightful. Nice try though.
     
  3. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    His book is probably the best written in English, though that isn't saying much. It is worth having, if for no other reason than it's bibliography.
     
  4. TomD

    TomD Valued Member

    One of the reasons that this book is better than all those written in English, are the sources he uses. Kacem uses a very wide variety of historical texts in this work, whereas the majority of the books written by or for westerners only use texts like the Bansenshukai and Ninpiden. There are doubts to which extent these works actually describe the practice of Ninjutsu and also concerning the motives which which they were written. Non historians often forget that you can not just take a history book that is 200 years old and use it as true fact. Every historian, also those of today, is embedded in his society, which shapes his/her outlook, motives etc. But Kacem explains this way better than I can:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlrPjUsKsa0"]Dr. Kacem Zoughari -- Kako, Genzai, Mirai (The transmission of ninjutsu and bujutsu) - YouTube[/ame]

    Regards, Tom.
     
  5. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Well the reason that I ask is that to my knowledge he's the only westerner that's qualified in the subject of transmission of Japanese martial traditions, what with lecturing on it at a Tokyo university and all

    Whilst I can understand the bias argument, isn't it more plausable that he, with his research, knowledge of the subject, academic peer reviews (by Japanese) etc is persuaded by the argument rather than "it's all a big conspiracy theory and he's duping Japanese academia for Hatsumi"?

    I'm no expert, but if you take the trouble to read beyond the "author selling a book" kind of research it's quite interesting actually. Oxford uni has done some intersting work on how to assess the accuracy of oral traditions, how to cope with the problems of studying any group that was not part of the top 1-3% who are well documented
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2014
  6. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member


    His Ph.D is in Japanese history and culture isn't it?


    There are probably others but you are forgetting about the likes of Dr Friday who let's not forget is also menkyo kaiden in Kashima Shinryu.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2014
  7. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Hi

    Yup fair enough

    Kacem currently lectures on transmission of koryu at a Tokyo university, which is pretty much what we are talking about
     
  8. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

  9. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Also the study of non-elite groups (who are not so well documented) has received more academic focus in recent years and it's quite an interesting (if a bit geeky) read
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2014
  10. TomD

    TomD Valued Member

    Kacem is definately not the only westerner who has the skills to comprehend ancient Japanese culture and language and who is also a koryu practitioner, yet there are not an awful lot. Science keeps moving forward and scholars get deeper and deeper into subjects as time moves along, creating new understanding. Kacem is operating on the forefront of study in Japanese Koryu at the moment and is getting high acclaims in Japan.
    As far as Kacem's ability to be critical, there are a few things to be said. At first, a historian tries to be as critical as possible, yet there is a limit to this due to the society he is living in, his upbringing, etc. When studying a subject like this, being a closed group or culture, things get more difficult. Whether you are studying a secret society, a near-extinct tribal culture, or a koryu, you will have to immerse yourself into the subject to gain full access. Sometimes you have to be initiated, study, etc. Thus the nature of the research borders on anthropology. There is no way around this. This being said, people doing research in this way do have a university education. Kacem's credentials come from one of the finest institutes in France, where they do a good job of educating scholars. If there would be an awful lot of bias etc. in his work, be assured he would be shot down by his peers (which is how peer reviewed science works). The academic world does not need a Martial Arts forum for that. There is a reason that the fact he has a PhD is brought up quite often, this being that it actually means something, it means years and years of hard work, being corrected by teachers of high standing, and publishing hundreds or thousands of pages of relevant material.
    Asides from that, there is not a person in the BJK who is more critical of it than Kacem. He is also very critical of the claims made by the other Kans, mainly GBK, yet he always gives solid grounding and evidence for his claims.

    Regards, Tom.
     
  11. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    His Ph.D. thesis was on the subject of transmission (written, oral and physical) of classical japanese martial arts (koryu), which one might say falls into the category of Japanese history and culture…

    The research and compilation and comparisons he has done on for example the evolution of Kage Ryu (from the beginning to the various branches of Shinkage Ryu today) is - as far as I know - unprecedented. So if you ask me, what Kacem has to offer as an academic is a wide view of different koryu in different times, which has lead to his findings of certain key elements (in movement and transmission) that are common denominators (that in turn can be found in some ryuha still active today, while absent in others).

    It's only natural that many of his views are in conflict with other authorities on the subject, who might be biased from a different angle because of narrower and more focused viewpoints. But the extreme amount of research and study that he has put into his work is not something to be easily neglected by people who don't even read japanese. His book on the Ninja is just a small percentage of his work, and I am positive that more of his writings will be published in the future that will shed more light on the views that are presented on forums by his students and people attending his seminars.

    I think that in this case, on the subject of secrets, everything has been said in this thread already. Those complaining about the attitude of ninjutsu practitioners should also look at their own attitude. The transmission of this art is not something that can be affected by the members on this forum, and those who claim things like "I teach everyone everything" are not people who are part of the transmission of the ryuha anyway. The only secret is practice (under a master), because it will open all doors. But if you don't practice, or practice under guidance of your own ego, then the front door won't even open and you'll never even see the the inside of the art. You might catch a glimpse or so by looking in through a window, but you'll never be inside. And what shall we practice to get inside the doors? Tsuki, uke, keri.

    Just my 2 cents...
     
  12. TomD

    TomD Valued Member

    This.
     
  13. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Thanks Will. I did remember something like that but when I googled it came back as history and culture so I assumed I'd got mixed up.

    Bloody interesting subject!

    Thanks again, good to have someone like you who's a bit closer to things.

    Does his work cover the structure and institution of ryu-ha as an over all vehicle for transmission? Is it just focused on the methods of transmission or does it go beyond into things like keppan and even the other side with something like hamon and the resulting consequences for both the individual who is expelled and the ryu?

    I'm actually pretty tempted to get that book of his now.

    Nice.
     
  14. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    It discusses not just that, but also how the ryuha came into being and also about the koryu of old (i.e. what was old when the koryu were gendai, so to speak). But mostly it is about the transmission from master to disciple, and how different disciples with the same rank might receive different transmission based on their relationships. It's 900 pages and consists of three parts - "The Masters" (which goes more into detail on the people and the relationships), "Documents of transmission" (which translates certain documents, for example from Kage ryu, and discusses them in great detail) and "The movement - form and structure" (which goes into the movements that have been described in texts, how they have been described, and how they appear in various ryu/branches today).

    It does mention keppan, although it is not a major subject of the thesis. As far as hamon goes, I do not think it goes into details on that... but it is of course a very interesting subject.
     
  15. Wooden Hare

    Wooden Hare Banned Banned

    Mod Note: I am not intending to troll PR, but answering his terms with civil rhetoric, asking him tough questions he has repeatedly skirted on this website (in multiple threads). I feel he is a troll who, regardless of actual lineage, skill, or rank, often uses his anonymity to insult people, often while attacking the authenticity of others. I also think he abuses the inline quotation feature, in order to make responding to him difficult...someone else in this thread has separately complained about that.

    You do realize you have no credibility with me with regards to ninjutsu because you refuse to be honest about your rank and who your instructor is, but claim it is quite high, lending yourself to casual uses of appeals to authority and of course the ability to troll at will without repercussion.

    On some sites I frequent (such as Bullshido), you'd actually have to prove your ranks before you were allowed to dismiss others the way you often do when arguing about authenticity.

    "Done research"...spent 75% of my natural life observing a beloved subject from an objective POV....which appears to separate us (you appear to be very non-objective, especially when you belittle others).

    It is the case, and your statement is a logical fallacy.

    I didn't need to learn to read Cantonese to understand to develop an understanding of Hung ga Kuen. It's older, and has more "secrets", and in fact IF Masaaki Hatsumi is even telling the whole truth, parts of your art comes from my art.

    I didn't need to learn to read Greek to understand the complexities of the Pantheon, either.

    What I definitely don't think I need is "secret" indoctrination into Bujinkan to learn about Ninjutsu.

    I am friends with such people, especially inside the MA world, so you are barking up the wrong tree, unless you'd like me to invite them to this thread.

    No, I think the Bujinkan just sells them packaged as secrets. These techniques are freely shared in other arts, and other places. SOME claim Bujinkan started from there, in fact, but became secretive.

    There is no technique, "secret", "hidden" or otherwise in Ninjutsu that is unique to Ninjutsu. Claims that there are without historical evidence must be taken on FAITH alone.

    Real Ninjutsu isn't in books or the Bujinkan. One of the few things I know Hatsumi has said that I can verify is actually true. It is based on universal concepts, not one dogma.

    History records the actions of the ninja, doesn't it?

    If it hadn't how do we know so much about the ninja?

    Logically, it must mean they have no (real) secrets.

    It's great that anybody who has studied in the Takamatsuden agrees with me.

    What lineage? Where is the proof that Takamatsu is linked to historical ninjtutsu, again? According to all the threads, it can't be substantiated. And according to all the history books...there is no modern lineage.

    Note that I didn't "glean" it JUST from internet forums.

    I "gleaned" it from 30 years of following Hatsumi, reading all of his personal works, and then reading some of the best scholarly investigations into ninjutsu, ever, by actual students, some likely senior to yourself.

    Now, why would you dismiss so many intense investigations, just because some of the best are online?

    Enlighten us then about these subjects, you are the "expert" here, right? Mea culpa...


    Correction: read things and read things online and talked to people online and talked in people in person.

    This is considered, in some circles, getting to the facts.


    The entire Bujinkan is an assumption that he said.

    Which legitimacy? Again, to my knowledge, there is no documentation proving anything. There is only the claims, and the fact that Takamatsu may have been one thing but not necessarily the sole living heir of Ninjutsu.

    Do you? That is why I've asked for your rank and position in the Bujinkan.

    The fictional backstory I am referring to is the supposed link between Takamatsu and historical ninjutsu.

    It's not confusion...historical research does NOT link these two.

    You would have to prove this claim on Bullshido and several others sites, before being taken seriously.

    Maybe I've passed godan test too. Maybe I was really in the Bujinkan for 20 years.

    Your move.

    Theory: Masaaki Hatsumi is the living heir to Ninjutsu

    Proof: ?????
    :whistleblower:
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2014
  16. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Speaking for myself, please do.
     
  17. Wooden Hare

    Wooden Hare Banned Banned

    I will if PR says who his rank and teacher are.

    I will gather every one I can...
     
  18. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    What difference does that make?
     
  19. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    No masked profanity refers to images too - you've been here long enough to know this rule.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 21, 2014
  20. pseudo

    pseudo Padawan

    Wow, this thread is getting to the point of being print worthy. Historical documentation at its finest :p
     
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