Hong Kong Democracy

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Mangosteen, Sep 30, 2014.

  1. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Here's a copy of a post I made on facebook about the HK situation.
    Pitch if I'm missing anything out or anything needs changing.

    Brief Hong Kong History
    Hong Kong is a “special administrative region” of the PRC (People’s Republic of China), handed over from the UK, of which Hong Kong was a former colony.
    An agreement that guaranteed Hong Kong a period of autonomy was struck.
    Part of this agreement struck with the Beijing government of the PRC gave Hong Kong the opportunity of universal suffrage (the right to elect their own leader) by 2017.
    Under the autonomous rule of the past and present, Hong Kong does not have democracy and has instead committee that selects a leader within that committee.

    During British colonial rule and under it’s own autonomy, Hong Kong flourished with people afforded the rights that those of the PRC did not possess.
    Low tax rates, free public health care, incredibly efficient public transport, some of the world’s top educational institutions’, access to the Internet completely uncensored, the freedom to travel and the freedom to protest.
    In fact, while the world economy was recently floundering, the HK government found it had enough extra money to distribute 6000 HKD to all of it’s permanent residents.

    So why does Hong Kong want democracy?
    Because the PRC has effectively rescinded its promise of democracy by only allowing candidates that the Beijing government has screened and selected. At first glance this does not seem problematic until you examine the influx of Mainland Chinese (those from the PRC) businessmen and the like into Hong Kong in recent years.
    A Beijing chosen leader will not represent the interest of the people of Hong Kong but will instead represent the interests of mainland china and the Beijing government.

    But Hong Kong hasn’t had democracy so why would they miss it?
    Again it’s because they would not receive representation.
    Under a Beijing leader they may eventually lose many of the freedoms they have today.
    Evidence for the oppression of autonomous rule by Beijing is evidenced by the autonomy that Tibet and the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region have – close to zero freedom.

    Why the heck did Beijing even tell anyone about the false Democracy plans? They could have done it silently…
    According to this article:
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/960...happening-in-hong-kong-is-not-what-you-think/
    The Chinese Communist Party (CCP), which is split into a number of factions, rules the Beijing government.
    These factions are trying to push each other constantly.
    By announcing the false democracy plan, when they could have done it secretly, they’ve created the civil disobedience movements we’ve seen.
    This was the move of one faction to pressure another faction.
    If Beijing gives democracy, the factions in power will lose support from key players in the PRC and lose power and may have to step down.
    If they try to suppress Hong Kong through a massacre like Tiananmen then the current ruling faction of the CCP will have to step down from international condemnation.

    So they’ve decided to stand around in the city?
    Yes - and it’s working, close to 80,000 protesters constantly on shift have shut down the main business areas of Hong Kong causing a halt in the economy.
    Not a single act of violence or property damage done.
    Everyone in Hong Kong is highly educated and this isn’t a peasant’s revolt.
    This is about keeping hold of the rights people of Hong Kong have in the face of the suppressive Beijing government.
    The lack of violence is important in preventing things escalating.

    So why are the police being aggressive?!?! DAMN PIGS!
    The police are stuck too. As are the government.
    If they do not show that they are able to exert some control then the PRC’s People’s Liberation Army may be deployed which would be drastically worse for everyone.
    So don’t hate the police, everyone in Hong kong wants’ democracy but its about maintaining the illusion of control.
    They’re keeping everyone safe even when they don’t seem like they are.

    Will there be a massacre like Tiananmen?
    Uh. Well.
    I can only speculate.
    But I doubt it. Why would China crash the insanely profitable, and efficient Hong Kong system with a massacre?
    The reason they want Hong Kong is because of how awesome it is – they just want to transition it into PRC pockets.

    What will the authorities do?
    Deploy harsher tactics with the police.
    Or if violence picks up then maybe the PLA will move.
    Or wait for the protests to die down – people will have to return to work eventually.

    What should Beijing do?
    Give democracy, oppress their own country with media blackouts like they still do.
    By giving Hong Kong democracy they can push the blame that people in Hong Kong have toward Beijing has away from Beijing and onto the failings of democracy (because they will undoubtedly block the policies of any democratic leader in HK).
     
  2. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    I always found it funny that having had no representative government in Hong Kong for a hundred years of British rule, we introduced it just before we handed it back to China. Presumably so that we could piously lecture them about the importance of democracy in Hong Kong!
     
  3. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    I have to say, I read this and the first thing that I wanted to ask was "is there anything that we can do?".

    The scale of the events going on at the moment is pretty mind boggling.

    To add to the discussion though, I just read this from my FB feed today. I guess it just goes to show how important it is that the protests continue.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...itain-and-US-provoked-Hong-Kong-protests.html
     
  4. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    I'm no expert on HK/China relations, so feel free to educate me, but from my layman's point of view, I don't really get this situation.

    HK'ers have know for a long time that they will be reconnected to the mainland. Democracy is an illusion of choice, in most cases. HK is heavily economically dependent on trade with China and the financing that comes with this.

    If this unrest persists and multinationals, banks, etc, that are currently based in HK start to feel uncertain about HK's stability and its relationship with mainland China, they will just pack up and move to mainland China or Singapore or some other regional hub. It really doesn't take much for this to happen (as we saw with commodities houses relocating from CH to SG last year). What will HK be left with? One way or another they will have to rely on China for their future, I don't see any alternative to this. Seems there is very little to gain and much to lose.

    I wouldn't be surprised if there were external forces acting to destabilise this HK/China relationship or China in general. Though I don't see who would benefit from this, China is deeply entrenched in global trade, if it starts to rattle, this will be felt globally.

    Anyway, I did some digging around. Not really sure what to make of it yet. Some issues I have come across:

    - As mentioned above, prior to 1997, the Governor of Hong Kong was directly appointed by London. The Hong Kong people had no democratic rights or any says in Hong Kong politics throughout the 156 years of British colonialism. The freedom they enjoys now is greater then under British rule.

    - Western MSM reports seem to deliberately ignore the proposal currently on the table for the 2017 election, which includes direct election by voters of Hong Kong citizens over candidates nominated by a 2000-member strong election committee, itself made up of Hong Kong citizens from all sectors of HK population.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_electoral_reform#NPCSC.27s_31_August_decision

    - There were significant demonstrations against the occupy movement:

    http://www.ibtimes.com/hong-kong-pr...reets-against-occupy-central-movement-1660648

    - Interesting read, not sure how objective it is though: "US Openly Approves Hong Kong Chaos it Created"

    http://www.activistpost.com/2014/09/us-openly-approves-hong-kong-chaos-it.html

    - This character (Jimmy Lai) seems to be a US linked instigator of sorts, at least according to Beijing:

    http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2011/10/20/lais-donations-transfix-hong-kong/

    http://www.ejinsight.com/20140805-jimmy-lai-aide-refutes-cliams-on-us-govt-links/

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f1cb693e-2f44-11e4-a79c-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3EhosQJoF

    :dunno:
     
  5. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Lived in HK for close to a year as a kid back in '89. Even then all the natives were scared about what would happen to civil rights once the place was handed back to mainland China.
     
  6. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    LemonSloth, sorry, only noticed this after my last post.

    I don't really get what you mean by it, could you elaborate?
     
  7. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    exactly an illusion of choice
    china didnt even need to announce the false democracy plan - but internal politics in Beijing are the main driving force of this whole thing.

    Yeah. this is a worry that business will move to china directly
    but HK has the advantage of being a major port with very low tax rates. its why companies like HSBC wanted to move their headquarters out of the UK and into HK again

    This actually might why the UK hasnt spoke up in any form - Chinese rule benefits them from companies not moving to a lower tax area. as well as the threats china keeps making... probably mostly the threats

    I'm trying to encourage my friends with permanent residence and foreign passports to protest and contact foreign press about their experiences so that if the PLA marches, the presence of foreigners with hong kong rights being oppressed or endangered will put international pressure on china to not do anything stupid.

    itll be forcing the hand of british government rather than being pawns in the chinese game of thrones.

    the pro-democracy movement has the occupy movement as only one of its factions but they really arent the main driving force anymore. i cant imagine many in hong kong want beijing to take over completely.

    as for Jimmy Lai having US instigators - i honestly dont know but bejing media is really mostly lies and cover ups. they're censoring HK in the rest of china. theyve covered up loads of stuff (HIV epidemics theyve created, info about tianeman, the where abouts of the real punchen lama).
    heck they accused joshua wong (the idealistic student who started the recent protests) of being a CIA agent. ridiculous - this is beijing internal politics creating strife.

    the freedom HK experiences now might be better than british rule but why shouldnt they be allowed all the freedoms they were promised?
    why settle and not try for more?
     
  8. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    TBH it was a bit of a knee jerk reaction. I'm very much a believer in the right of the people to peacefully protest the actions of their relevant government (and to receive fair coverage for it). Seeing that much of the Russian and Chinese media outlets seem to be focusing so much on telling whatever lies they can to cover things up, then it seems like it might be prudent to draw the attention of other international media sources.

    However, truthfully when I posted that I didn't quite think of the ramifications of what might happen should the protests continue.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2014
  9. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    I lived in Hong Kong in 1989.
     
  10. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    I'm having this discussion on another forum, one of the members posted some interesting insight in response to my questions:

    Some interesting reads here too:

    http://time.com/3447838/hong-kong-democracy-china-protests-anson-chan/

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/02/w...-both-inconvenience-and-inspiration.html?_r=1


    Thanks for expanding on this.

    To be honest though, Western MSM is hardly objective. As we have seen in the past with Iraq/Syria/Lybia coverage, i.e. deliberate misrepresentation or outright false information to back the government line.

    A good recent example is the large amount of anti-Russian propaganda/vilification which deliberately covered up or white washed murder of thousands of civilians by Kiev forces and the hundreds of thousands of refugees these actions created. As well as deliberate presenting of fraudulent info to back their points such as after the MH17 disaster, airing fabricated recordings and even showing video game footage as evidence of Russian involvement.

    I even saw what I would deem the pinnacle of British journalism, FT, change a story after it was published on their site as the propaganda was just too obvious, needless to say they got a right grilling from their readers over that to the point of the editor coming out to apologise. There is also a major issue that for a good 6 months the western MSM did not cover the or claimed as "Russian Propaganda" the fact that whole battalions of extremist were fighting on Kiev's side, the same lot that Amnesty international has accused of war crimes. Nor did they cover the clear anti-Russian rhetoric spouted by top Kiev leaders which in large part contributed to this whole mess.

    If you want to see any of this, just let me know, though it would be off-topic to post here and I don't really want to derail.

    Anyhow, the point I want to make is that both journalism and history on different sides is preferential to their loyalties/paymasters, despite claims of freedom and all that, both have lies, half-truths, exaggerations and embellishments. I think at the end of the day it’s just human nature.

    For me personally, I find it difficult to accept either media's view outright without considering as many divergent sources as possible, hence I am reluctant to just accept the line our media presents as they are neither as objective nor as impartial as they make themselves out to be.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2014
  11. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    The stuff on the other forum is spot on

    I dont trust most media (british media is the worst) but beijing has been pumping out crazy stuff like telling mainlanders that the reason there are so many people in the streets of hong kong is because they are celebrating the PRC's national day! you know, cos they are so nationalistic to the PRC! :p

    something about the protests is something that used to amuse me about HK - people always have their face in their phones
    But this has lead to a load of information via social media and the highly organised protests we've seen

    I have a friend who is reporting from the front line via social media (who number of MAP folk have added)

    here is an interesting translation from a fire fighter in HK. it's a good insight on how HK government is using hong kong's icon (bureaucracy) to fight the protests:
    http://www.passiontimes.hk/article/10-02-2014/19079
     
  12. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Things going viral:
    AND - most worrying is that Beijing is making threats:
    http://qz.com/275737/abercrombies-absurd-dress-code-is-going-all-the-way-to-the-supreme-court/

    but from a friends father who was a leader of the tiannamen protests, beijing wont march:
    http://www.thestandard.com.hk/breaking_news_detail.asp?id=53834&icid=3&d_str=
     
  13. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    So the media (BBC) has finally picked up on the the chinese governments involvement in the anti-democracy protests with triad members admitting to being paid to cause trouble.

    Amazing it took so long...
     
  14. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Sadly the government can easily wait out the protestors. Additionally if it comes to cracking heads the protesting citizens don't stand a chance against the riot police. China isn't going to back down on it's policy in regards and to HK being able to choose their leaders. China would happily cut off it's nose just to spite it's face.

    Having spent a good portion of my life living in Hong Kong it's sad to see it all end up like this... or is it. They never had these rights under the British and no one who actually had two brain cells to rub together really thought the boys in Beijing were going to do anything that might even remotely loosen their grip on China as a whole. They'll go down in blood and flames first. Everyone that was busy waving a Chinese flag during the handover will live to regret it or not. The Chinese as a whole are very good at adapting and I suspect it will be a fuss for some time but I think the chances of it turning into a full blown revolution are slim to none. People will want to get back to their lives and make money and raise families. The standard of living in HK is high enough that no one is going to risk that fighting pitched street battles with far better armed riot police.

    That's not how Hong Kong is wired.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2014
  15. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    they should just retreat and save their energies for counteracting unfavourable policies.
     
  16. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    My FB feed is split with both Pro and Anti Democracy. Also stating what Slip says, HK never had that system and is currently thriving so why should it change.
    And I understand what everyone wants, but the chances of China changing their minds over a elongated protest, is also slim to none.

    What I don't like to see though is honest workers who have lost out on businesses because of the protests being sacrificed ironically by the same people who want a better HK. And then when those same (now bankrupt) business owners challenge the protesters, they get labelled as either Communists or be accused of being a Triad.

    UK is having a bit of a sulk as now MPs are banned from entering Hong Kong for making "Pro-Democracy" comments. Which to be fair, is understandable, unless you're going over to assist with some form of peace talks and you're going to be negative about how someone runs their house, then don't expect to be invited over.
     
  17. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    The thing is mushroom, the chinese dont want things running the same way they have been. they've backed politicians with their own interests and have changed policy regarding how much mainlanders can come into HK. mainland business and tourism has invaded HK recently. and while thats not bad, the issue is that China might make HK like china and people in HK will be worse of for it.

    the deal was between the UK and china initially so UK technically does have the right to be negative on how that house is ruled (not that china listens to reason).

    and Triad members have admitted to international media outlets to being paid off by representatives from the chinese government to clash with pro-democracy folks and to smash up the legislative centre while pretending to be pro democracy members. sadly no one can trust each so the accusations of "triad" flies at everyone.

    but the protesters need to stop, gather their energies and let business go back to normal. they need to counteract policy the best they can with the limited democracy they have.

    its hurting local business owners in a futile fight thats dividing people in supporting the democracy movement.
     
  18. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    Oh I'm in agreement in all that, but when China took over what did people expect? Of course a country will want to assimilate and said they would before '97.
    What most people didn't know what how much it would've changed. I remember quite a few people did their best to escape on 1st July, thinking a swarm of "mainlanders" would be jumping the borders and invading HK's precious land.

    Change is happening but slowly. As incompetent as most people think Politicians are, they know that HK is a big money maker and the one thing the Chinese Gov know what to do is look after money.

    I disagree with quite a few changes that are happening but I also disagree with stuff that goes on here in the UK.

    And what would the UK do? Can you imagine Cameron flying over as the face of Democracy in HK?

    There's a lot of fault on both sides, but I'm not liking how every protestor is claiming to be a victim.
     

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