Differences in ITF

The three step sparring in ITF is really Shotokan, with the addition of a bit more advanced kicks. The same is true of their korean Kata. Only a fool would deny it. It's the addition of kicks which attracted it's attention internationally. Those could not have arrisen from Karate. Your argument won't bite.

I just want to point out that korean karate is technically Tang Soo Do.

 

There are only so many ways you can move a leg so randomly experimenting ot looking at another style would mean you could easily just bolt it on to an existing base

 

It's simply a matter of philosophy, which determines the style of any martial art. There is not a single aerial kick in my Shotokan instructional book. I have, of course, seen aerial kicks performed from karatekas, but it's not something greatly encouraged or emphasized in Karate, even when kicks to the head were "introduced".

It would be interesting to see how it looked back in the days of april 11 1955, when Taekwondo was named, compared to when ITF was founded.

I suspected the Taekkyeon claims were bogus, even before joining here. Old TKD is so close to Karate that you would have noticed the bledning of two such apparently distinct styles of martial art. But you really don't.

The Koreans did everything in their power to try and make Tae Kwon Do appear uniquely korean.

 

Gichin Funakoshi - Historical Video Series: http://youtu.be/jH9TDqeAPFA

At the 30 min or so mark there is a flying kick clearly demonstrated. Early on in the film you will also see thr turning kick you said didn't exist in karate

The gaps are your knowledge i am afraid because this has TKD progenesis all over it..embrace that fact and move on. What is was does not define what it now is and all the backward engineering and apologetics is not only embarassing it is flat out stupid

 

I have, of course, seen aerial kicks performed from karatekas, but it's not something greatly encouraged or emphasized in Karate, even when kicks to the head were "introduced".


May I add, for a bit of backward engineering (my specialty), in my life time! Aerial kicking is lacking in karate.

 

Because it pretty pointless

 

As is Kata (in my opinion).

 

Oh, I agree with you completely on every point.

When I said "ITF", in the context of the post you quoted, I was referring explicitly to any of the three ITF splinter groups (often called ITF-C, ITF-V, and ITF-NK) which spend most of their time bickering over who is General Choi's rightful heir. (I try to call independent groups like the TAGB "ITF-offshoots" where I can.)

It's the ITF-C/V/NK who typically see Choi as some kind of saint. Peronally, I think the debate over the last half dozen pages or so has been silly. I was really only pointing out to ITF-Taekwondo that his/her perception that the ITF brand of TKD is not so unique (hence the Taekkyon bits), and that some of what he/she has been told about ITF history (especially with regards to the WTF) is bloated propaganda (or just outright made up).

For some reason though, Earl seemed insistent on defending the ITF version of events, which is fair enough (even though he seemed to be addressing my posts almost exclusively, which is a trend I've noticed over numerous threads now).

"Koreanised" is definitely a more diplomatic way of putting the Korean habit of renaming something and takijg credit for it. I'm not sure if it's a cultural thing, as they also did it with judo ("yudo") and Muay Thai ("Kyuk Too Ki"). I suppose it's natural considering their struggle for a national identity during the Japanese occupation.

 

Out of curiosity what makes backward engineering your speciality? Is it the backwards part or do you simply mean breaking things?

 

The people in my ITF don't speak negatively about the other ITF organisations as being inferior. It is written however that the other ones don't wish to follow the requests of General Choi. Or something to that effect.

 

You need to re check the historical time line.

The relationship with NK was several years after he left SK.

The infamous article by GM Son that removed the rank of General Choi was taken out by GM Son:
1. After GM Son was already removed as head of the CDK
2. Also expelled GMs Nam and Uhm. I am sure you know it was GM Uhm who replaced GM Son as head of the CDK and remained as such for decades and GM Nam remained a senior respected member.

#s 1 and 2 should give great insight into GM Son's motivations and how they were viewed by the CDK members and leadership.

 

Can't speak for "ITF Supremecists" as you call it.
Your pejorative explanation not withstanding what General Choi did, and as clearly set forth by him, is no different than what was done by Funakoshi, Kano, Ueshiba, Lichtenfield, etc.

Can't help but wonder. Are you a professional ITF and general Choi hater or is it just a hobby?

 

I do not claim to even know what the "ITF version of events" is or are. Don't recall ever seeing the ITF or any ITF put it in print. I have only seen you post claims of what you believe the ITF version to be. I therefore question what your sources are and provide reference to written materialss which contain information which is different than what you report or find on Google Searches or provide additional info to elaborate on info you provide which would otherwise leave an impression based upon icomplete information.

Of course, a couple of people I have spoken with directly had firsthand experience going back into the 1950's so anyone can claim their perspective was colored by their experience.

 

I would ad, IMO that the 2 largest contributions of General Choi were:
1. Development of TKD as a system by codifying it thru his books and the encyclopedia, in detail whcih I have not seen for any other sytem nd have yet to hve anyone provide an example of a similar treatise although modern technology is now making available on a wide scale things simialr to the CD ROMs produced in the 1990's; and
2. His spread of TKD thru the training, recruitmant, demonstrations, and dispatch of instructors on an International scale.

 

Seriously????

Shotokan by the founder

http://www.amazon.ca/Karate-Do-Nyum...d_sim_b_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=08BF88NY1BRQ8QPNTRM7

http://www.amazon.ca/Karate-Do-Kyoh...2-6824866?ie=UTF8&refRID=128TY5TDK7JHGMZ1908G

Shotokan series by Nakayama

http://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=nb_sb_no...ywords=best karate&sprefix=best+ka,stripbooks

Judo

http://www.amazon.ca/Kodokan-Judo-Essential-Guide-Founder/dp/156836539X

BJJ has more tapes than you can shake a stick it - Gracie Combatives being the obviosu examples

There are more books and DVD's on "Total Systems" than you can shake a stick it...in fact one might argue there is a glut

 

Ahh! So it is the actually FORMAT that is exceptional? Fair enough

 

Saying the format is exceptional does not really address the contents. Many texts have some of the detail but I have not seen any that contain all such detail . Perhaps why it encompasses 15 volumes. Some of the details include:

Foot / Stepping Diagrams, Applications for pattern motions with photos. Multiple photos with different views / angles, examples of common mistakes with photos and explanations as to why they are less than optimal positions or applications, (I do not recall seeing another MA text showing common mistakes, probably some out there) details as to levels of techniques, and definitions as to levels and exceptions thereto, reasons why techniques are spec'd a certain way and more.

 

Saulo Riberio Jiu Jitsu university would probably qualify as would the DVD series I mentioned - "Gracie Combatives"