More about Bukti Negara and common misconceptions

Discussion in 'Silat' started by taoizt, Sep 1, 2015.

  1. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    Just to give this forum a bit of a boost i decided to write a small article about Bukti Negara, a system of silat/pukulan that has somewhat different roots than a lot of other silat styles.

    Firstly Bukti Negara is the name of a system developed by the late Pendekar Paul de Thouars. Roughly translated it means 'evidence of a country' and what he initially meant was that he wanted to honour the heritage of Serak which is an indonesian system. Also he wanted to thank the USA for being the country the family de Thouars moved to when they had to flee from Indonesia after the independence war.

    It's a name that might confuse people, since a similar name is Bakti Negara that is a Balinese system of Silat.

    Bukti Negara was developed in the 80's in the L.A. area. So it is a relatively new style. However all of the knowledge comes from it's mother system which is Serak. Serak is a legit traditional indonesian system.

    Paul de Thouars, being a dutch-indonesian, was not really pure Dutch, neither was he Indonesian. The dutch-indonesian systems of Silat usually are known for practicality, not too flowery.

    Indonesian Silat usually is much more linked with aspects like spirituality or religion and culture. Aspect like Ilmu Kebatinan often are very important next to the physical aspects.

    In Bukti Negara, most of these aspects are not emphasised, since the western culture is very different from traditional Indonesian culture.

    Some aspects like 'Adat and Hormat' are used as terms in America as well but quite often misunderstood or misinterpreted.

    Through the skill of Dan Inosanto a lot of people got in contact with aspects of Bukti Negara. With that a lot of JKD instructors also got a bit of flavour from that as well.

    One aspect however that is often overlooked is dat Bukti Negara is an entire system, with Jurus, specific entries, ways of hitting, strategy, distance etc. So in my opinion, if you teach Bukti Negara you teach the system and not some sapu and besot drills combined with JKD boxing or Muay Thai sparring

    Serak is a traditional indonesian silat style that is practiced in Indonesia, the United States and Holland predominantly. A couple of years ago, guru Paul de Thouars, the head of Bukti Negara and Serak in the USA and guru Dolf de Vries, the head of Pukulan Serak in Holland decided to join forces again and with that decision, some essential changes were made to Bukti Negara with the approval of the elders of the system.

    Sadly Bukti Negara (and Serak) is a system that fell victim to a lot of politics. A big part is the infighting between the Thouars brothers that all claim official heritage. Paul de Thouars was the main teacher of the system but since his passing in 2013, a lot of persons claim ownership of the system. Luckily Paul de Thouars officially appointed a 'board of directors' to secure the heritage of Bukti Negara.


    Since 2012 the main practitioners of Bukti Negara again have made great strides to make this unique system more well known to the bigger public.

    Characteristics of the system:

    - Close combat system at very short range
    - Based on principles, not on set techniques
    - Relatively small curriculum with 8 jurus
    - Just focus on Bela Diri, No Olah Raga, Seni or Ilmu Kebatinan
    - Extensive use of body mechanics to generate power and make techniques work
    - Based on unarmed combat, on later levels use of senjata (weapons) (the opposite of how styles like Escrima work)
    - Standing and ground work is in the system
    - Extensive use of langkah for positioning against multiple opponents
    - A well structured system that is constantly evolving
    - With roots in indonesian system but modified to western person. Religion is not linked to this style of silat (some styles require you to become muslim). Outfit is modified to modern age, no (pseudo) traditional outfits in training
    - a system that can be trained commercially, so is not restricted to just train with family and close friends


    I hope other people can also write something about their own style of silat. This is not meant to do advertizing about the system, but to explain a bit more about it.
     
  2. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Ah. Very helpful. My apologies for confusing the two in the other thread then. I stand corrected. :)
     
  3. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    Soon in Glasgow, at the Paisley Silat Club there will be a seminar on Bukti Negara with the chief instructor in Europe and direct student of the late Pendekar Paul de Thouars, Walter van den Broeke.

    If you want to know more about the current day Bukti Negara and how it differs (and is improved) from previous experiences in Bukti Negara, this is an excellent opportunity.

    Plenty of people got a hint at this style by training the silat of Dan Inosanto or Cass Magda, but this is different stuff...seeing is believing.
     
  4. Dylan9d

    Dylan9d Valued Member

    I think this is a great post, thanks Taoizt.

    I do think that alot of Pukulan or Silat systems share alot of tactics and principles.

    Im training with Glenn Lobo now and thats Malaysian Silat, but I see similair things coming back from the stuff that I learned from the Ingrams, maybe some stuff is executed differently but the core principles are the same.

    I do agree that there are styles that are more focussed on the art forms and some that are focussed more on the spiritual side. But the systems that are focussed on combat do share alot of similarities
     
  5. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    Hi Dylan9d,

    I happen to know Glenn Lobo for a little while. Just say hi from me (Ronald) from the Dutch Bukti Negara branch, and he will know who i am.

    Good luck with training,
    Ronald
     
  6. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    I agree and i disagree with what you wrote, Dylan9d. Do a lot of pukulan or silat style share tactics and principles? Yes. Is it therefore very similar stuff? Not really. The difference (and the devil) is in the details and there the big differences float to the surface.

    What are 'core principles'? To be aggressive, or to use striking as a means to subdue an opponent? Well then we agree. Do core principles mean that your body momevents follow certain rules and you have to move in a specific way, then there are big differences. The way our Pukulan hits is very different from what i have seen in most other pukulan-based arts. Some just use boxing as a way to hit, some prefer karate, some have their own way of hitting. A punch is just a punch, but getting further into the details, a punch is not just a punch, and once you get really really refined...a punch just means a punch.
     
  7. Dylan9d

    Dylan9d Valued Member

    Maybe if you dive into the details it might have little refinements that differ but what i have seen so far it's not very far apart, and yes I use those boxing punches because for me it's most practical way to hit.

    A human body can only move in certain ways ;)
     
  8. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    Well i would not call it little refinements. At all. I would call them different in tactic, different in execution, different in power generation, different.....wellll just different ;)

    I didn't know you used boxing punches, but if i may ask, why use boxing punches when you have pukulan background? Just asking.
     
  9. Dylan9d

    Dylan9d Valued Member

    Well you might call them boxing punches but for me its pukulan punches, there is only not much difference between them....

    Like I said the human body can only move in so many ways.....so all those differences that you summarized aren't as big as you think
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2016
  10. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    Well i agree to disagree. I know it's the common thought with a lot of practitioners. But if it's all the same, why are there hundreds of styles if all is the same? For instance a TaiJi punch (yes some do punch) might look the same as a boxing punch, however there is a world of difference in the technical execution. Don't dismiss the differences too quickly as being minor, it might look really the same, but is it really? I guess you have to experience it to really know.
     
  11. Dylan9d

    Dylan9d Valued Member

    I experienced a couple of martial arts indeed......

    Was funny to see that most martial arts uses the same punches. The goal of a punch from boxing, pukulan, taichi or any other system is exactly the same.

    I think I had a similar discussion about trainingmethods with someone about training on shoes, he couldn't believe we were doing Silat/Pukulan on shoes, was funny......

    Anyways, the point beeing in the end of that discussion was that with or without shoes the goal of the training was the same
     
  12. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    I think goal and principles are not the same...
     
  13. Dylan9d

    Dylan9d Valued Member

    Most of the times they are........it's just people that tend to think they are unique ;)

    Characteristics of the system:

    - Close combat system at very short range
    - Based on principles, not on set techniques
    - Relatively small curriculum with 8 jurus
    - Just focus on Bela Diri, No Olah Raga, Seni or Ilmu Kebatinan
    - Extensive use of body mechanics to generate power and make techniques work
    - Based on unarmed combat, on later levels use of senjata (weapons) (the opposite of how styles like Escrima work)
    - Standing and ground work is in the system
    - Extensive use of langkah for positioning against multiple opponents
    - A well structured system that is constantly evolving
    - With roots in indonesian system but modified to western person. Religion is not linked to this style of silat (some styles require you to become muslim). Outfit is modified to modern age, no (pseudo) traditional outfits in training
    - a system that can be trained commercially, so is not restricted to just train with family and close friends


    As if you described Ilmu Buka Beladiri there :) only we don't use 8 jurus
     
  14. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    As can be said of wing Chun, Tai Ji, and chow gar and cimande. Do they punch the same? No way. The goal is the same (take out an opponent in short time), principles are different and again... the devil is in the (important) details.
     
  15. Dylan9d

    Dylan9d Valued Member

    We can keep going back and forth about this but to go straight to the point, Bukti Negara isn't unique, it's Silat or Pukulan whatever you want to call it and I'm pretty sure most of it's principles are also in other Silat styles or maybe even other martial arts.

    Same for my art Ilmu Buka Beladiri, which isn't new and which isn't special and doesn't need to be, as long as it's practitioners keep both feet grounded...
     
  16. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    Offcourse Bukti Negara is unique ;-)
    And I hope for you that your Ilmu Buka is unique as well or else why create a new system?

    I think the problem is you are superficially right, you train a couple of times, watch a video and read some articles and judge the system from that. (I mean that in a general sense). However the really valuable stuff comes when training it for a while and see how everything was made to build on a single system, that trains 'all'. This takes time and you can't learn that quickly. Good luck with your style of Ilmu Buka!
     
  17. Dylan9d

    Dylan9d Valued Member

    Just want to say this, if a system isn't unique doesn't mean it's a bad system.

    Just to put it out there.

    :)
     
  18. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    True Dylan9d, It doesn't mean it's a bad system if it's not unique.

    However to determine if a style is unique or not, at least you have to seriously train a system to judge it. Nowadays there are too many people who superficially say they know a system because they recognize similar movements. We even had a guy coming to a seminar who said it resembled TaeKwonDo, which is about the furthest away from Bukti Negara. It's like saying that a Range Rover resembles a Mini since they are both cars...
     
  19. Dylan9d

    Dylan9d Valued Member

    Like I said in the several pm's, the human body can only move in certain ways.

    Most systems share tactics and principles, especially Silat.
     
  20. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    Well Dylan9d, as i mentioned also in pm before, you know where to find us so there is always an opportunity to see what principles and tactics we share.

    Now back to the subject of the topic, it was meant as an explanation on the current flavour of Bukti Negara and it's misconceptions. If anyone is curious about the style, I would advise to check it out in person.
     

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